One True Hero and Hero By Committee - LONG (Was: Re: WHo needs Harry?)

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182361

zgirnius wrote:
<snip>
> Harry does not have to be the one to defeat Voldemort. The books are
not written in such a way that Harry must be the one. <snip>

> Harry has only one unique role in the book. <snip>  He's just the
only one that *must* die for it [the defeat of Voldemort] to happen.
><snip>
> But, as Harry's musings go on to note, Harry was not chosen to pass
the Horcrux task to because only he could do it. Dumbledore passed the
task to him for his own reasons – <snip> he could have recruited a
different successor (actually, successors, for Dumbledore approves 
including Hermione and Ron). 
> 
> Harry himself, recognizing the job remains unfinished, picks a new
successor to replace himself.
> <snip> 
> And so Harry tells Neville that the snake must die, knowing quite 
well that this is a task Neville, or Ron, or Hermione are every bit as
qualified for as he. (In fact, Neville kills the snake, as we know).
And then he goes off to do the only thing no one else can do, 
> yay Harry.
> 
<snip> Albus Dumbledore <snip> was on the job of defeating Voldemort
even before he knew about the Horcruxes. He learned of a prophecy
about a baby that would grow up with the power to defeat Voldemort,
and took steps to keep that baby safe, without understanding the
mechanism whereby the baby would eventually have this power. When the
boy stumbled, all unknowing, across a Horcrux he was uniquely equipped
to handle (the Parseltongue Voldemort gave him), Albus understood what
was going on and embarked on his Horcrux quest, identifying three
Horcruxes and their locations (aside from the unexpected involvement
of one Regulus Black) , and a fourth, in a location unknown. <snip>

> The Hallows, wand, etc. were not necessary to the defeat of
Voldemort. As the story was written, Voldemort could have been killed
by any sufficiently powerful and determined wizard, or a group, after
Neville destroyed the final Horcrux. Albus threw them into the mix to
achieve his own, private goal – to weight the scales in any way he 
could to bring about Harry's survival. <snip>

Carol responds:

I disagree. Yes, Dumbledore and his hearing the entire Prophecy are as
necessary as Harry. Only he has obtained the memories necessary to
determine what some of the Horcruxes may be and only he really
understands the workings of Voldemort's mind. And he makes sure that
the Prophecy Boy survives and then teaches him only as much as he
needs to know. (And Snape's role, which I won't discuss here, except
to note that Harry would have been up a creek had he not delivered the
Sword of Gryffindor, is also crucial.

And, yes, only Harry can "die" to destroy Voldemort. Had there not
been a soul bit in Harry's head, Dumbledore might have been a lot less
reticent about sharing his information with others, and certainly, he
would never have delegated the task of hunting Horcruxes (once he
stupidly put on the ring) to Harry.

But you're forgetting that only Harry had access to Voldemort's mind
via the scar connection, so only he could know what Voldemort was up
to while he and his friends were hunting the Horcruxes, and only he
could know via that connection that the Ravenclaw Horcrux was hidden
at Hogwarts. (DD's not knowing about the room-of-hidden-things aspect
of the RoR and suspecting that the diadem, which would be the logical
Ravenclaw Horcrux, seems to me to be, if not a Flint, at least a
development that requires us to suspend skepticism--a different matter
from the willing suspension of disbelief required to believe in the WW
and the characters, as I noted in OTChattter.)

zgirnius: 
> The Diary – Harry is able to destroy it, but Lucius Malfoy and
Hermione Granger make small contributions to this achievement (Albeit
unintentionally, in Lucius's case).

Carol:
As catlady says, I've "gone on about Basilisk venom" in quite a bit of
detail already, but I think this is another goal that only Harry could
have accomplished because only he had the power given to him
inadvertently by LV of speaking Parseltongue, which enabled him to
open the Chamber. (DD might have *found* it by interviewing Moaning
Myrtle but could not have *opened* it, nor could he have destroyed the
diary, whose existence he didn't know of.) Nevertheless, Dumbledore
made an important contribution, providing the Sword of Gryffindor to
kill the Basilisk, which made the destruction of that Horcrux and
future Horcruxes possible, and providing Fawkes to blind the Basilisk
and save Harry from its poison, insuring the survival of the Prophecy
boy. And, of course, the whole incident rendered the Sword of
Gryffindor capable of destroying Horcruxes itself, as I've already
stated several times. So CoS and the destruction of the diary is a
crucial first step (beyond confirming DD's theory of multiple
Horcruxes), and it requires Dumbledore and Harry working together. No
other team could have accomplished what they accomplished together.
the destruction of future Horcruxes was made much easier, and the one
Horcrux whose existence DD didn't guess (and no one else could have
guessed, either) was destroyed.

agirnius: 
> The ring, identified, found and destroyed by Albus. 

Carol responds:
An instance of Dumbledore knowing too much! Wise Fool, putting on a
Hallow that was formerly a Horcrux without examining it for curses,
which, in turn, necessitates the help of Dark Arts expert Snape. But I
agree that the Hallows plot was unnecessary, and Dumbledore could have
destroyed this Horcrux alone (thanks to Harry's having made the Sword
of Gryffindor into a Horcrux destroyer) without shortening his life by
putting the stupid thing on. (Or he could have taken it to Snape to
have Snape examine it for curses and remove them before he put it on.)
But, again, we have DD and Harry working together even though Harry
doesn't know it. Without Harry, DD would have had to find some other
means of destroying the ring Horcrux, a difficult matter, as I've
already established (though perhaps not impossible).

zgirnius: 
> The locket, the identification, location and destruction of which
required the combined talents of Albus, Regulus, the Trio, Kreacher,
Phineas Nigellus, and Snape. (Pardon me if I forgot someone).

Carol:
Mundungus, who stole it and informed HRH, under duress, that it had
been taken from him by a toad-faced female Mom official. <g> The
question is whether the fake Horcrux could have been retrieved from
the cave some other way (without abusing a House-Elf or killing a
Wizard), and, if so, whether RAB could have been identified. (Maybe if
Sirius Black were still alive he's have recognized the initials and
remembered examining the locket when they were cleaning, but then we
wouldn't have gotten Kreacher's Tale.)

zgirnius: 
> We have the Cup, the identification, location, and destruction of 
which required the combined efforts of Albus, the Trio, Griphook, and
 an assist from Bellatrix.

Carol responds:
Which occurred because she recognized the Sword of Gryffindor, which
was supposed to have been placed in her vault (along with the cup,
which she didn't know was a Horcrux). But, again, the presence of the
sword and Lucius's intention of summoning LV rather than dispatching
the prisoners themselves results from one of them being Harry, and no
one but Harry would have realized that Bellatrix's panic related to
the cup Horcrux. I don't see how anyone else would have discovered
that the cup (which DD had figured out was a Horcrux) was in
Bellatrix's vault. As for getting it out of the vault without sending
off alarm bells for Voldemort that the other Horcruxes were in danger,
I don't suppose that anyone short of a living Dumbledore could have
done it. 

zgirnius: 
> The tiara, the identification, location, and destruction of which 
required the combined efforts of Albus, Harry, Helena Ravenclaw, 
Luna, and assists from Crabbe and Voldemort.

Carol:
Harry, however, was the only one who succeeded in getting the info
from Helena. Not inevitable, I concede. But Crabbe would not have been
in the RoR, nor would he have cast the Fiend-Fyre that accidentally
destroyed the Horcrux (and took his own life) if Harry hadn't been in
the Ror (and Draco hadn't known how to get in to that particular
manifestation of the RoR). (The survival of HRH, Draco, and Goyle
resulted mostly from luck--the presence of the brooms. Or was that the
magic of the room?)

zgirnius: 
> Nagini, the identification, location, and destruction of which 
required the combined efforts of Albus, Harry, and Neville.

Carol:
And Voldemort, who summoned the Sorting Hat, which contained the only
weapon that could have killed Nagini. You stated earlier that any of
the Trio could have killed Nagini, but I don't think an AK or
Sectumsempra would do it. She's a Horcrux, after all, and would have
had the usual protective spells put on her. So, again, it comes back
to Harry, who not only delegated the job to Neville but gave the Sword
the power of destroying a Horcrux. (Of course, the magic of the Sword
of Gryffindor coming to the aid of a Gryffindor under conditions of
need and peril and chivalry also had something to do with it, but had
it not been impregnated with Basilisk venom--or the power of Basilisk
venom to destroy Horcruxes, as Steve says--I don't think that either
the sword or his own valor would have done Neville any good. (And I
doubt that anyone but DD could have identified Nagini as a Horcrux. I
imagine that your committee would have tried to kill her just because
she was evil and dangerous and Voldemort's devoted
pet/servant/familiar, but I doubt that they could have succeeded
unless they just happened to have the weapon that Harry had given the
power to destroy a Horcrux.)

zgirnius: 
> Oh, and Sluggie chips in the magic number. <g>

Carol:
Reluctantly, thanks to Felix Felicis and Lily's eyes. And let's not
forget the HBP, whose brilliant potion improvements won Harry the
Felix in the first place. <g>

zgirnius: 
> Harry did defeat Voldemort, and he was able to do so, owing to 
fortuitous circumstances which resulted when Albus's carefully laid 
plan regarding the Elder Wand went astray. Because of these
circumstances, it was much easier for Harry than anyone else to defeat
Voldemort in the final battle, but someone else could have.

Carol:
It's Harry's love magic that makes Voldemort's spell lose their power,
regardless of whether LV has the accursed Elder Wand. But, sure. A
Snape who hadn't been killed by Nagini (and who had delivered the
self-sacrifice message to Harry in some other way) could have killed
LV once the Horcruxes were destroyed--if he knew that Voldemort was
mortal. Or a murderous McGonagall eager to cast Unforgiveable Curses
in defense of Hogwarts. But neither of them knew about the
now-destroyed Horcruxes. Only Harry and his friends were privy to that
information, thanks to DD's secrcy.

zgirnius: 
> And then there is the other mission. To die, so that a piece of
Voldemort's soul is destroyed. Only Harry can do this. He is placed 
in this position through circumstances I personally find crystal
clear, and a thing of beauty. Snape reports prophecy, Voldemort
chooses to act murderously on said prophecy, Snape begs for Lily's 
life, Voldemort asks Lily to step aside, Lily refuses, Voldemort zaps
her, and Bingo! Horcrux!Harry is born.

Carol:
Exactly. And, as the Prophecy clearly states, the Dark Lord marks "the
one with the power" as his "equal"--not in the use or knowledge of
Dark magic or even skill in spell-casting, Expelliarmus and Expecto
Patronum perhaps excepted, but in the ability to speak Parseltongue
and to enter Voldemort's mind. And, ultimately, there's the power of
Love, thanks to Snape's love for Lily, which gives her the choice to
live or to die and results in the ancient magic that saves Harry. LV's
own broken word and damaged soul result in the soul bit entering the
open cut, and "the one with the power to destroy the Dark Lord" is born.

I still think that the Horcruxes could not have been found and
destroyed without the powers that Voldemort inadvertently gave to
Harry, and only he could have found and destroyed the diary. And, as I
said, he provides the weapons that can destroy most of the other
Horcruxes (Basilisk venom could have destroyed the tiara, as well, had
Crabbe not intervened). Which is not to say that the Order members
(other than Mundungus and Mrs. Figg) couldn't have helped out a bit
more along the way if DD hadn't been so secretive.

But, still, if it hadn't been for Godric's Hollow and a Harry with a
soul bit in his head (ordinary Wizard Harry would have been of as much
use as Petunia), I don't think that the Horcruxes could have been
found and destroyed. Unless, of course, we have a Grindelwald
undefeated by Dumbledore, in which case, Voldemort might not have
risen to power at all, or would have met his match. And I'm really
glad that didn't happen, for the sake of the entire European WW.

Carol, glad at least to know that CoS, previously one of her least
favorite books, is integral to the series after all