ChapDisc: DH 18, The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 182754


> Alla:
> 
> Do I follow the hypothetical scenario that you described? Totally.
Do  I see canon support for this scenario? No, I am afraid not really. 
> How do you deduce  that Dumbledore is being sure that Voldemort is 
> 99% certain  that he can spot Harry leaving Privet Drive in time to 
> intercept him? We are talking about Dumbledore being sure of this 
> **without Snape giving Voldemort any information yet**, right?
> 
> I am not even talking about Dumbledore estimating any odds actually, 
> I am just talking about Dumbledore just knowing that Order's plan is 
> bound to fail. 

<snip>

> Because you see, I will  of course never like or respect Dumbledore 
> so casually putting his comrades in the line of fire **knowing that 
> it does not have to be so**, BUT what I am trying to do is at least  
> see SOME logic, some **dire necessity** that it could not have been 
> avoided at all, or something like that.
> 

Pippin:
I have canon that it isn't done casually:

"You never killed if you could avoid it!" 
"True, true," said Dumbledore, and he was like a child seeking
reassurance. --DH 35

Unless I'm supposed to think that Harry and Dumbledore are  insane or
lying to each other, it's canon that Dumbledore would not send people
to their deaths lightly, and not unless the alternatives were worse. 

Now, reasonable people can disagree on what, if anything, is worse
than death. And I think one of the things JKR is showing us is that
the problem with even the most benign and enlightened of despotisms is
that  the despot gets to  decide what's benign and enlightened. Tough
luck if you think otherwise. He won't kill you for it -- but he ain't
gonna change his mind.

If JKR wanted us to think that Dumbledore could have found a way to
avoid more deaths  if he'd tried harder or thought about it more, IMO,
she'd have had someone say so. But even Aberforth doesn't say that. He
doesn't say that if Harry thinks about it he might find a way to fight
Voldemort that doesn't involve so much personal risk. He just asks
whether someone who cared about Harry wouldn't have told him to go and
hide rather than place himself in danger for the sake of a greater good. 

Harry says he knows he might have to die, that he's known all along.
Harry didn't feel betrayed because  he'd have to sacrifice his life,
he felt betrayed because (as he thought) Dumbledore *knew* he'd have
to sacrifice his life and didn't tell him. 

Dumbledore's mania for secrecy is criticized, his desire to protect
people from making poor decisions by not letting them make any
decisions at all is roundly denounced. Dumbledore was definitely
dangerous to know. But if we were supposed to think that he was mad or
bad, I don't think Dead!Dumbledore would have said "good-bye for the
present" -- sorry to disappoint you, but Dumbledore is not going to be
burning in any imaginary hells, not unless Harry expects to end up
there as well!

It seems wrong that the mighty wizard who can do so many things that
seem impossible can't find a better way. That's what mighty wizards
are for. But, in the immortal words of a Larry Niven character whose
name I have forgotten, "There doesn't got to be a way." That is where
these books part company with escapism. 

In the Potterverse, there doesn't got to be a way that Fudge could
have reached out to the Giants or banished the dementors without
alienating his supporters. There doesn't got to be a way Dumbledore
could have survived the ring curse. There doesn't got to be a way that
Snape could have saved Charity Burbage. There doesn't got to be a way
to make the House-elves embrace the idea of freedom, there doesn't got
to be a way to make the Slytherins less selfish or the Gryffindors
less arrogant, why with all these harsh realities to be accepted
should I think there was a way to get Harry away from Privet Drive
without Voldemort knowing? 

Voldemort has always been able to find out anything he wanted to know.
 That he wanted to know when Harry would be leaving Privet Drive is
made clear from the start. The first order of business when Snape and
Yaxley arrive at Malfoy Manor is their reports on this subject, and as
I very much doubt that anybody but Voldemort determines the agenda at
DE meetings, Yaxley and Snape obviously already know that Voldemort
desires this information above all. 

Snape has already represented himself as having "a source we
discussed" inside the Order -- if he then failed to produce correct
information, Voldemort would indeed be suspicious, and that would
jeopardize Snape's missions as prospective headmaster, protector of
the students, deliverer of the sword and conduit of vital information
for  Harry, none of which Snape will be likely to accomplish if
Voldemort is keeping him close, like Lucius, to torment him for
failure or  to observe him for signs of disloyalty.

Moody says "if we're lucky" Voldemort will have swallowed the fake
bait, but explains that with You Know Who out there and half the
ministry on his side, the polyjuice plan is needed. He's underplaying
the possibilities of Voldemort not taking the bait and participating
in the attack, but he knows it might be coming. He wasn't completely
unprepared. And he cuts the conversation short when Harry tries to
poke holes in the plan -- is that because he thinks the plan is
perfect as is, or because he knows it isn't and doesn't want his
people dwelling on how much could go wrong?

One of the problems, I think, is that, as Harry notes to himself, the
Moody we know best isn't the real one.  The real Moody isn't as
cleverly devious as Barty Jr. The real Moody thinks being devious is
dishonorable (ironically we know this from fake Moody's ferret
bounce.) A person like that would be ill-equipped to come up with a
plan that would have a truly decent chance of fooling Voldemort, and
Moody probably knows it.  

Alla:
> Another example is the Tower of course. I find Dumbledore ordering 
> Snape to kill him and not caring about Snape's soul, being well, 
> screwy, to put it mildly. 

Pippin:
Where does it say Dumbledore doesn't care about Snape's soul? He says,
"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man
avoid pain and humiliation" -- in other words, whether allowing a
doomed  old man to die with dignity and in the service of the cause
for which he dedicated most of his life would be an act of supreme evil. 

Dumbledore is not saying, do this evil thing because I'm willing to
commit you to hell in order to avoid a few hours or minutes of
suffering. He's saying, I don't think this would be an evil thing, and
if you agree, do me this favor.

I don't think the anguished moment we see in Flight of the Prince is
Snape's remorse for killing Dumbledore. I think it  was for that one
moment that Snape experienced *James'* death through Lily's eyes:
"Kill me like you killed him." It was fleeting,  like Harry's
momentary sympathy for Snape in OOP. But I think it was there.

Pippin