Did Harry Notice?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 182873

--- "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182861
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > First you are making a mistake; as I have pointed out before.
> > You are assuming the people, even in fiction, and most
> > significantly Voldemort, are speaking in absolute truths;
> > they are not.
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > And YES, I do think Harry noticed, but I don't think the
> > details mattered to Harry. He still saw his father as brave
> > and heroic, even if he was foolish to not snatch up his 
> > wand as he ran to the door. 
> 
> 
> Mike:
> I see your point and I agree. Voldemort will lie whenever it 
> suits him ...
> 
> ... 
> As Carol correctly pointed out, this was the chance for James
> to redeem himself from the bad press he'd gotten since PoA. 
> ..., it was whether James was more than the trusting fool. 
> .... It was whether James had really graduated from that 
> brash, bullying young man into a more responsible adult. ...
> 

bboyminn:

You are certainly a welcome member of the group and even 
when I don't agree with you, you still bring up interesting
and insightful topics. Too bad, you haven't been around
here for years, it would have really added to the old
discussions.

On one hand, I'm not retracting what I said, but on the other
hand you certainly do have a point. It is about whether James
ever grew up. Whether he ever became a responsible parent,
or whether he remained the hell-raising boy he was for most
of his life.

>From the looks of it, the answer is no. Yes, he got older and,
to some extent wiser, but as Voldemort observes, he was foolish
not to keep his wand with him at all times. I can speculate
that there are 'off screen' contributing factors, but I think
you raise a very important issue and I would dearly love to
hear JKR's take on it. 

It seems there were several areas of redemption that fell short
in the final book. One of the others being the redemption of
Slytherin House. Yes, Slytherins did take part in the battle
against Voldemort, but what about Slytherin students. I really
needed and expected some redemption there.

Now, you raise the issue of James' redemption as a character.
JKR seems to have crafted the scene deliberately, yet, what
could she have been thinking. I can understand her wanting
Harry to have a more realistic and less idealistic view of
his father. But, what James did in that critical moment seems
foolish in the extreme, and seems to indicate that James still
had tons of growing up to do.

That said, I repeat that I think Harry saw and understood. He
knew that James acted foolishly and carelessly, yet, even so,
he was brave and heroic. I think Harry understands and forgives
the mistake. Something that may be easier for a character to
do than for a reader. 

> ...
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182861
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > I never really noticed this before, and now that you brought
> > it up, it is confusing. First, in this instance Harry is not 
> > seeing through Voldemort's eyes, he is seeing and 
> > comprehending through Voldemort's mind. His thoughts are 
> > Voldemort's thoughts.
> 
> Mike:
> A quick note here; I think that Harry *does* see through 
> Voldemort's eyes. He saw that it was Mr Weasley in OotP, ...
> and other features through Voldemort's eyes when Voldemort is 
> on his quest for the Elder Wand. ...
> 
> 
> <snip of canon>
> 

bboyminn:

I wasn't saying that Harry COULDN'T see through Voldemort's
eye, only making the distinction, that in that moment when
Voldemort is reliving the Godrics Hollow event, that Harry
is see INTO Voldemort's mind, not out of Voldemort's eyes as
had happened so many times before.

Later in that same scene after Gordrics Hollow, Harry does 
see what Voldemort sees. He sees the snake on the filthy floor
amid the clutter.

I simply wanted to make people aware that we are seeing
something unique in this moment. Once we get to the '...and
he had killed the boy, and yet he was the boy...' reference,
after that, Harry is seeing what Voldemort sees as usual.


> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > I honestly can't say, I think it is Voldemort realizing sub-
> > consciously that he had tried to kill Harry and instead a
> > bit of his own 'self' had been transferred to Harry -- I
> > killed the boy, I am the boy.
> > 
> > On a vague subconscious level Voldemort realizes this but 
> > consciously he is as confused by it as we are. I think it is
> > JKR attempting to foreshadow our later learning that a piece
> > of Voldemort's soul is in Harry.
> > 
> > This is sort of an after-realization on Voldemort's part but
> > not something he understands, not something that makes sense
> > to him.
> > 
> > Hey...it's just a thought.
> 
> Mike:
> And a good thought it is, Steve. ;-) This is one of the ways 
> I read  it. That in this moment Voldemort, who has just been
> reduced to fractured soul, ... his being responds to the soul
> piece finding Harry as a repository, then he recognizes the 
> pain. All happening so fast that there is no time to process
>  what has really happened.
> 
> Of course the problem with this interpretation is that it is
> all preceeded, in real time, by Voldemort being back at 
> Bathilda's place and out of the 1981 GH reminiscing mode.
> 

bboyminn:

Because of the confusing nature of the line in question, I 
think Voldemort is mentally in two places at once. He has 
mentally returned to Bathilda's but he is also still lost in
the memory of what happened to him. I think the confusion of
two places at once, and the rushing realization that Harry 
Potter has thwarted him again cause sufficient distraction 
that Voldie loses the significants of that thought - '...and 
yet he was the boy...'. 

If he had been paying attension and spent some time trying to
figure out what it meant, he might have succeeded. But that 
anger at being bested by Harry, and the thrill of finding the
handsome boy who robbed Gregorovitch drove it from his mind.

It is really kind of clever on JKR's part, assuming we are
interpreting it right. The answer was right there in 
Voldemort's mind, but he let it slip away. 


> Mike:
>
> The other thought that occurs, Harry is still visiting 
> Voldemort's mind, but is coming out of the trance-like state 
> that is holding him there. That was indicated by the 
> non-italicized "No" that Harry spoke out loud. <p.345> So 
> maybe it was Voldemort thinking "he had killed the boy" but 
> it was Harry's own mind trying to snap out of this trance 
> that told him "he *was* the boy". 
> 

bboyminn:

Very observant. Notice father down near the bottom of the
page, Harry awakens, more or less, reassuring himself that
he is Harry and not Voldemort. Yet, after the 'boy' thought,
we still have a couple of short paragraphs of being in
Voldemort's mind completely. Still, you could be on to 
something.

> Mike:
> Or maybe the connection was so strong at this point in time 
> that, as Carol postulated, Voldemort actually briefly, 
> momentarily visited Harry's mind.
> 
> It's still the "he had killed the boy", coming *after* LV 
> notes the screaming Harry and *after* he seems to come out 
> of the reminiscing mode and is back at Bathilda's place with
> Nagini, that remains confusing.
> 
> Mike
>

bboyminn:

While I can't say you are wrong, I am less willing to concede
this last point. The connection between Harry and Voldemort's
minds has been a big on-going theme. It seems odd that such
a unique shift in the working of the connection, would be 
revealed in such an incredibly subtle and indirect way. 

Previously, Voldemort could inject thoughts and ideas into
Harry mind, but we don't know that he had the same type or
extent of connection that Harry has with him. Note the only
time Voldemort substantially inhabits Harry's mind is when
Voldemort possesses Harry at the Ministry of Magic. He seems
to have access to Harry's thoughts in that moment, but it
is a very unique and special case. 

So, while I can't say it is impossible, I think it unlikely
that in that moment, Voldemort was seeing through or into 
Harry's mind.

Just one man's opinion.

steve/bboyminn