Did Harry Notice?

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 182871

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182861
> bboyminn:
> 
> First you are making a mistake; as I have pointed out before.
> You are assuming the people, even in fiction, and most
> significantly Voldemort, are speaking in absolute truths;
> they are not.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> And YES, I do think Harry noticed, but I don't think the
> details mattered to Harry. He still saw his father as brave
> and heroic, even if he was foolish to not snatch up his 
> wand as he ran to the door. 


Mike:
I see your point and I agree. Voldemort will lie whenever it suits 
him and possibly even when the truth would be more to his advantage, 
being the contrarian that he is. 

But there is more at stake here than whether Voldemort is/was lying. 
As Carol correctly pointed out, this was the chance for James to 
redeem himself from the bad press he'd gotten since PoA. It wasn't 
just whether Voldemort lied about James's "courageous fight", it was 
whether James was more than the trusting fool. It was whether James 
actually was as talented as advertised and if he really did give 
Voldy a fight, albeit a losing one. It was whether James was more 
than simply brave, a quality we all expected from a Gryffindor, but 
was actually capable of holding his own against a foe when he didn't 
have that foe outnumbered (cough, SWM, cough). It was whether James 
had really graduated from that brash, bullying young man into a more 
responsible adult. This was the one chance that JKR gave us to see 
James in action after SWM. We know he's going to lose, going to die. 
It's how he dies that's important to his legacy. Not just that he 
died "straight backed and proud", but that he showed something beyond 
that headlong, devil-may-care type of bravery he was born with.


> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182867
> Pippin:
> We're watching and hearing the action from Voldemort's point of
> view. Voldemort knows that the door has burst open. But James
> doesn't know that -- he's in another room, he can't see what
> happened, all he's heard is a loud noise from the front hall.
> It's Halloween, he has friends who like to play pranks, and he
> thinks he's *safe*. He's not thinking like a bodyguard, the spell
> is supposed to be taking care of that.

Mike:
First, a correction, you had quoted me and not Shelley in this post. 
Geez, first James gets credit then Shelley gets credit for my words. 
Hey, at least I'm being quoted by real people now. ;-)

To your point; Pippin, I would think you would most appreciate the 
symbology of this scene. I've always found your analogies and 
allegories to be most insightful. So maybe I should ask you, am I all 
wet when it comes to my reading? Is my desire for a meaningful 
progression from James misguided?

Furthermore, if there is even a possibility that James thought this 
could be a prank by one of his friends, doesn't that prove that these 
are still a bunch of boys playing in a man's world? (colloquialism, 
not a sexist comment here, please) I would find it hard to believe 
that after taking the difficult and extreme step of enacting a 
Fidelious Charm that anyone involved would even think about practical 
jokes of this nature, at this time.


> Pippin:
> I think JKR knew exactly what she was doing in DH, foreshadowed
> it with the scene from PS/SS, and always intended to show James
> facing Voldemort without his wand. Isn't that braver than facing
> him with one?

Mike:
Braver, not in my way of thinking. Facing Voldemort, knowing he is 
more powerful than you and that you are going to die is bravery. 
Facing him without your wand, is resignation to your fate. Not 
bringing your wand in the first place is foolish, just as Voldemort 
noticed. 

With all the gravity of their situation, for a wizard to rush into 
the hall without picking up his wand first points to immaturity not 
bravery, imo. And for every reason you could give me as to why James 
did it, whatever he was thinking, I would still say it shows a lack 
of appreciation for his position. That's both as protector of his 
family and with regard to the life threatening situation re 
Voldemort. And look, all he had to say was "It's him!", that was 
enough. So the possibility that it was Voldemort wasn't so remote in 
his mind either, was it?


> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182861
> bboyminn:
> 
> So, again, to your central question, yes, I do think Harry
> noticed and is fully aware of the circumstances and the poor
> choices that were made in that moment. 
> 
> But I can't help but wonder if JKR's point wasn't that their
> being disarmed, yet still standing to fight, didn't somehow
> enhance the magic that saved Harry.

Mike:
I think Carol answered the question about enhancing the love magic 
best, I'll defer to hers. One thing we know for sure, at least Harry 
brought a wand with him to the final duel with Voldemort.




> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182861
> bboyminn:
> 
> I've always contended that Dumbledore told lots of people about
> the prophecy, but that is a far cry from actually telling them
> the prophecy. I think he summarized it in a way that he felt
> was adequate to the listener's needs in the moment. So, in a
> sense he selectively summaried and generalized the prophecy
> without revealing exactly what it said.

Mike:
Yes, I agree. That's what I envisioned when I brought up the 
question. I really do think that Dumbledore was telling the truth in 
the Weasley's broom shed when he told Harry that they were the only 
two that knew the entire prophecy.

This does answer, or seem to answer the question as to whether or not 
the Potters knew Voldemort was after Harry or them, doesn't it? I 
think Dumbledore must have revealed that there was a prophecy, though 
I agree with your take that DD didn't reveal any more details than 
was necessary to convey the upshot regarding Voldemort's predictable 
response vis-a-vis his interpretation.




> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182861
> bboyminn:
> 
> I never really noticed this before, and now that you brought it
> up, it is confusing. First, in this instance Harry is not 
> seeing through Voldemort's eyes, he is seeing and comprehending
> through Voldemort's mind. His thoughts are Voldemort's thoughts.

Mike:
A quick note here; I think that Harry *does* see through Voldemort's 
eyes. He saw that it was Mr Weasley in OotP, when all that was 
noticed by Nagini/Voldemort was a man. He sees the villages, people 
and other features through Voldemort's eyes when Voldemort is on his 
quest for the Elder Wand. I think there is sufficient proof that 
Harry is actually seeing out of Voldemort'sd eyes through the soul-
piece connection.


<snip of canon>

> bboyminn:
> 
> I honestly can't say, I think it is Voldemort realizing sub-
> consciously that he had tried to kill Harry and instead a
> bit of his own 'self' had been transferred to Harry -- I
> killed the boy, I am the boy.
> 
> On a vague subconscious level Voldemort realizes this but 
> consciously he is as confused by it as we are. I think it is
> JKR attempting to foreshadow our later learning that a piece
> of Voldemort's soul is in Harry.
> 
> This is sort of an after-realization on Voldemort's part but
> not something he understands, not something that makes sense
> to him.
> 
> Hey...it's just a thought.

Mike:
And a good thought it is, Steve. ;-) This is one of the ways I read 
it. That in this moment Voldemort, who has just been reduced to 
fractured soul, has his consciousness follow the soul piece that 
broke off and implanted in Harry. So, his AK killed the boy, he is 
ripped from his body, his being responds to the soul piece finding 
Harry as a repository, then he recognizes the pain. All happening so 
fast that there is no time to process what has really happened.

Of course the problem with this interpretation is that it is all 
preceeded, in real time, by Voldemort being back at Bathilda's place 
and out of the 1981 GH reminiscing mode.

The other thought that occurs, Harry is still visiting Voldemort's 
mind, but is coming out of the trance-like state that is holding him 
there. That was indicated by the non-italicized "No" that Harry spoke 
out loud. <p.345> So maybe it was Voldemort thinking "he had killed 
the boy" but it was Harry's own mind trying to snap out of this 
trance that told him "he *was* the boy". 

Or maybe the connection was so strong at this point in time that, as 
Carol postulated, Voldemort actually briefly, momentarily visited 
Harry's mind.

It's still the "he had killed the boy", coming *after* LV notes the 
screaming Harry and *after* he seems to come out of the reminiscing 
mode and is back at Bathilda's place with Nagini, that remains 
confusing.

Mike