Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: DH - Chapter Twenty-One – The Tale of the Three Brothers

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 183032

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
> 
> Chapter Twenty-One – The Tale of the Three Brothers
<snip summary>

> Questions:
> 
> 1. Do you think Gurdyroot tea is really that bad?

Carol responds:
Okay, third time is the charm! I've lost partial responses twice. I'll
try not to lose this one!

I think Gurdyroot tea is probably like Muggle health food; very few
people like it the first time they try it, but motivated people can
overcome their original aversion. 
> 
> 2. While reading the story of the Tale of the Three Brothers by 
Beedle the Bard did any realisation come to you, as a reader, that the
gifts given by Death were potentially items with which we had 
familiarity?

Carol:
I don't really remember my initial reaction as I was sleep-deprived
and not thinking particularaly clearly at the time. It was clear from
the Trio's reactions that Harry's Invisibility cloak could be one of
the Hallows, but I certainly didn't think about Dumbledore's wand.
(Obviously, Harry's broken holly wand couldn't be the Elder wand.) I
don't think I thought about the Resurrection Stone in connection with
the ring Horcrux or the Snitch. I honestly don't remember.
 
> 3. When Xenophilius named the gifts of Death from the story as the 
Elder Wand, the Resurrection Stone and the Cloak of Invisibility, did
the title of the book you were reading make perfect sense?

Carol:
Well, no. It still doesn't make perfect sense. I knew that the three
objects in Beedle's were the Deathly Hallows and that they were real
objects somehow tied in with Harry's Horcrux quest, and they were
"Deathly" through their association with the allegorical
personification of Death, but I still don't understand in what sense
they can be considered Hallows (holy objects). The Elder Wand in
particular seems evil because it tempts men to do evil to acquire it
and/or to use it for murder and domination after they've obtained it.
> 
> 4. What reaction did you have to the speculation relative to Harry's
Cloak being the cloak from the story and did you find yourself 
agreeing with or dismissing Ron's thoughts about Harry's cloak being
extraordinary?

Carol:
I was and still am somewhat annoyed since Harry's cloak never seemed
extraordinary before. Yes, Invisibility Cloaks are rare, but I never
sensed that his was superior to the ones that the Order used. Nagini
can see or sense people under an IC whether it's Harry's or not. Both
the real and the fake Moody can see Harry under his cloak. True, the
DEs couldn't summon it later, but that's evidence presented *after*
we're told that his cloak is extraordinary rather than the necessary
foreshadowing. Unfortunately, Travers's Homenum Revelio spaell was
performed before they put on the cloak, so I can't tell whether the
cloak would have prevented their detection or not. (Sidenote: One of
Moody's cloaks was supposedly better than the other, but we're not
told why. I wonder whether it was the one he acquired from Barty Jr.,
who had impersonated him all year, after Barty was soul-sucked? Barty
had, of course, lived under an Invisibility Cloak a la Ignatius
Peverell for about twelve years and later used that same cloak to hide
him when he murdered his father.)
> 
> 5. Did the Elder Wand ring a bell at this point in the book or 
alternatively when Harry thought of his wand as the Elder Wand did 
you wonder if the Elder Wand was actually a wand with which we were 
familiar?

Carol:
I think I already answered this question in my response to question 1.
> 
> 6. Xenophilius uses the word 'capture' when describing how ownership
of the wand could be transferred - would that then mean that the wand
does not necessarily have to be defeated in order to transfer its 
allegiance?

Carol responds:
It certainly indicates that the owner doesn't need to be killed, but I
think it does need to be taken by force or cunning. If there's any
truth to the Tale of the Three Brothers, the original owner was
murdered in his sleep before the wand was stolen. Grindelwald, who
should know if anyone does, how the Hallows work, made sure that he
overcame Gregorovitch by Stunning him rather than merely stealing the
wand. Draco didn't capture the wand, exactly, but he did Expel it, and
usually a Wizard who uses Expelliarmus against an enemy (as opposed to
merely duelling an opponent for fun or as part of a DADA class) would
capture the wand. Draco's spell rendered DD defenseless, which was
probably sufficient to change the wand's loyalty, and, in any case,
once DD died, Draco was the only available alternative until Harry
snatched Draco's wand by force. (I think that the wand didn't know
about that Disarming until it heard Harry announce it to Voldemort and
then it chose to transfer its loyalty from Draco to Harry, but I don't
want to argue that point since it relates to a future chapter.) As for
how DD obtained it from Grindelwald, I think he must have surprised GG
amidst a display of fancy spells with a simple and wholly
unanticipated Expelliarmus. Either that or the Elder Wand isn't really
unbeatable against a Wizard as skilled as DD.
> 
> 7. Was the Peverell link thrown in by Hermione rather too convenient
or not? Explain.

Carol:
I don't think so. We'd already been given a Peverell link through
Marvolo Gaunt in HBP. I made *that* connection, at any rate, when
Hermione saw the name on the gravestone. And she'd been thinking about
the symbol--associated in various ways with Grindelwald, Xenophilius
Lovegood, Dumbledore, and the gravestone--for months before she
finally asked to visit Xenophilius. Under the circumstances, I don't
see it as surprising at all that Hermione brought up Ignotus Peverell.
(Now if Harry had brought up the name, remembering Marvolo Gaunt's
ring, I'd have been surprised.)
> 
> 8. Were you relieved to find normal relations amongst the trio 
restored?

Carol:
Of course. And I'm glad that they stayed that way. Thank goodness for
the Doe Patronus and Ron's defeat of his personal demons via the
locket Horcrux. And thank Dumbledore for the Deluminator.

> 9. Are the trio's choices of which Hallow they would like to have 
representative of their personalities?

Carol:
Good question. I think that, given Harry's preoccupation with killing
or being killed by Voldemort and all the loved ones he's lost, his
choice of the Resurrection Stone makes sense, though I could also see
him choosing the wand, wanting the power to defeat LV. Hermione's
dislike of the wand makes sense, but her fear of the Resurrection
Stone seems a bit excessive. (She was also afraid of the Veil in the
DoM without being able to hear the voices.) I suppose that the
Invisibility Cloak, the "normal" choice, makes sense for her, as does
Ron's choice of the wand, thinking simply in terms of what's needed to
defeat an enemy, with no philosophizing involved. He hasn't lost any
loved ones at this point, only some acquaintances like Cedric, Sirius
and Dumbledore, so he wouldn't be drawn to the Resurrction Stone, and
the Invisibility Cloak probably seem like old hat to him and to Harry
at this point.
> 
> 10. Did you, as I did, find the order in which Harry named his dear
departed notable?

Carol:
I don't think I noticed, actually. I think that the order reflects the
degree of pain he feels--most for Sirius, who was his godfather and
never had a funeral, so Harry never got a chance to deal with that
grief; next for Mad-eye, whose death is still recent and tied in with
Hedwig's (all they did for him was drink a toast and later Harry
buried Mad-eye's eye); then Dumbledore, whose motives and background
seeming lack of helpfulness Harry is still struggling with and who
did, at least, have a splendid funeral; and last, his parents, whom he
never really knew. I'm not sure, BTW, that I would class Mad-eye among
Harry's "dear departed" so much as one of those deaths, like Cedric's
and Sirius's and maybe Dumbledore's, for which Harry feels partly
responsible. (I'm not surprised that he's not among the people that
Harry actually summons to accompany him later.)
> 
> 11. By this stage, the trio having being at the Lovegood house for 
some time, were you expecting Xenophilius to betray the trio? Did you
feel some sympathy with Xenophilius and his reasons for being a 
Quisling or not given the status of the WW at the time?

Carol:
Something was clearly wrong, both in his behavior and in Luna's
absence. But I never felt harshly toward Xenophilius. Given a choice
between Harry, whom he has been defending as much out of eccentricity
as principle but does not know, and Luna, his one child and all he has
left of his wife, of course he chose Luna. Most people in his position
would. Yes, he's an old hypocrite, but he's also a father in danger of
losing the daughter he loves. I liked Hermione's gesture of revealing
her presence and Harry's to the DEs to show that Xenophilius wasn't
lying (though it did have consequences later in the Snatcher incident).
> 
> 12. Was it just the stunning spell that blasted the room apart or
was something else also involved?

Carol responds:
The spell hit the Erumpent horn, causing it to explode--and proving
Hermione right. (I still want to know who sold Xeno that horn,
claiming that it belonged to a Crumple-Horned Snorkack.)
> 
> 13. Were you able to make the link between Selwyn and Umbridge at
the time or did it not occur until later, or perhaps not until you
read this question?

Carol:
I had already made the link between Selwyn, who is first mentioned in
"The Seven Potters," and Umbridge, who told Mundungus that she was
related to the (presumably Pure-Blood) Selwyns in relation to
Slytherin's locket (and I suspected him of being the DE who supplied
her with Mad-Eye's eye for her office door as soon as we learned about
it). Travers I remembered from GoF as one of the DEs mentioned by
Karkaroff at his hearing but I couldn't remember his specific crime.
> 
> 14. What is Deprimo, had it been previously heard of, and was its
use necessary?

Carol:

I don't recall Deprimo's being used before. I think that Reducto would
have worked just as well in this instance (to blast a hole in the
floor so that they can escape).

Carol, whose favorite part of the chapter was Luna's portraits and
decorations in primary colors (that girl is a prodigy of some sort!)
but who hated the way the destroyed house reminded her of 9/11