Re: Chapter Discussion: DH - Chapter 21 – The Tale of the Three Brothers

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 183033

---  "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> wrote:
>
...
> HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
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> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
> 
> Chapter Twenty-One – The Tale of the Three Brothers
> 
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> ...
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Do you think Gurdyroot tea is really that bad?
> 

bboyminn:

Obviously, it is a subjective thing. Some people think 
Scotch taste good, I think it taste like gasoline. So, no, in
a general sense, it was probably not pleasant, especially to
young people who tend to favor things sweet and pleasant.


> 2. While reading the story of the Tale of the Three Brothers
> by  Beedle the Bard did any realisation come to you, as a 
> reader, that the gifts given by Death were potentially items 
> with which we had familiarity?
> 

bboyminn:

Hummm.... Familiarity? I did realize we were finding out about
the namesake 'Deathly Hallows', so in that sense it was 
familiar. It seemed a reasonable and quick connection between
the Hallow Cloak and Harry's invisibility cloak. Notice that
Moody has a Old I-Cloak and a New I-cloak. That means that
the old one was probably getting weathered, worn, and weak.
Harry's however, while we don't know its actual age, seems 
to be in pretty good shape and still very effective. So, that
one was easy.

As to the stone, I quickly made the connection to the Gaunt 
Stone Ring. It is the only stone that had played a significant
role in the story.

But, I had absolutely no clue where the wand was or if I had
ever seen it before in the story. Of course, it had been
hiding in plain sight all along. 


> 3. When Xenophilius named the gifts of Death from the story 
> as the  Elder Wand, the Resurrection Stone and the Cloak of 
> Invisibility, did the title of the book you were reading make 
> perfect sense?
> 

bboyminn:

Well, of course. It was easy to see that these were the
"Deathly Hallows" in the title. Still, while we then knew
what they were, we were no closer to knowing /where/ they
were. 


> 4. What reaction did you have to the speculation relative to
> Harry's Cloak being the cloak from the story and did you find
> yourself agreeing with or dismissing Ron's thoughts about 
> Harry's cloak being extraordinary?
> 

bboyminn:

No, I definitly agreed that it was Harry's cloak, though I
certainly at that point could have told you how or why Harry
ended up with the cloak. 


> 5. Did the Elder Wand ring a bell at this point in the book 
> or alternatively when Harry thought of his wand as the Elder
> Wand did  you wonder if the Elder Wand was actually a wand 
> with which we were familiar?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Harry was merely having a passing thought as he tried
to analyze the possibilities. I don't think he actually thought
his wand might be the one. 

But, of all the Hallows, this one was the greatest mystery. We
had seen some hints of Voldemort traveling, looking for people,
but what or where the wand was, or how it would be revealed in
the story, was a total mystery at that point.


> 6. Xenophilius uses the word 'capture' when describing how 
> ownership of the wand could be transferred - would that then 
> mean that the wand does not necessarily have to be defeated 
> in order to transfer its allegiance?
> 

bboyminn:

As you well know, we have had many deep and dark discussion 
about the Elder Wand. I think we need to be cautious about
to closely assigning the method of its passing to a new 
owner. I don't think the wand was very ethical, and I think
it would switch allegiance very quickly, but I also think there
are stituation where it would refuse to switch allegiance. 

Consider how it was first lost, as told in the story, the owner
was murdered in his sleep. That is hardly a defeat of the owner
or the wand, though it would certainly be a capture. Also, note 
that Grindelwald stole the wand like a thief in the night. Yet,
he hesitated just long enough for Gregorovitch to catch a
glimpse of him, and to try and stop the thief. 

I don't think the means of transfer can clearly be defined,
I think it is esoteric. Also, note that Harry, if he was ever
the Elder Wands Master, never touched the wand, and neither
did Draco, but Harry's /defeat/ of Draco was enough. So,
again, by Ollivander's own admission, how and why that wand,
or any wand, changes allegiance is very deep and mysterious.


> 7. Was the Peverell link thrown in by Hermione rather too 
> convenient or not? Explain.
> 

bboyminn:

Of course, Hermione is holding back information until she can
put some context to it. She saw the symbol on the tombstone
and the name, but, more or less, let it drop until now when
tying that symbol to the Peverel name and the story can have
some meaning. 

I didn't think it was 'rather too convenient', but was a very
timely question under the cicumstance.


> 8. Were you relieved to find normal relations amongst the trio 
> restored?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Hermione was very justifiably angry at Ron, and her
reaction to his return was hysterically funny for the reader.

Remember, when Ron abandon Harry, he also abandon Hermione and
I think that is what hurt the most. I think she could put up
with his complaining for the reasons Harry cited himself. But
to abandon her was unforgivable when things were do dire. And
I think she always had every intention of forgiving him and
knew it, once she got all the anger out of her system.

Still, at this point, what was has been forgotten. They have
too many problems in the here and now to hold on to old 
grudges, and like I said, she always was going to forgive him,
she just needed to be angry first.


> 9. Are the trio's choices of which Hallow they would like to
> have representative of their personalities?
> 

bboyminn:

I think you got Ron's wrong in your summary, but people have
already corrected it in their responses; Ron wanted the Wand,
Hermione wanted the Cloak, Harry wanted the Stone.

I thought their choices were very telling, but telling of what
I'm note sure. Logically, most people would want the Wand 
because it would mean immense power if you could just resist
bragging about it. The Cloak was very practical and being
practical and having proven itself useful, it would seem to
be the one she would choose. But I think she also saw the
danger in the other two. She feared that few people could
possess the Wand and not brag, which as the story and history
show would be a quick road to death. 

And I think Hermione felt a certain fear in Harry wanting the 
Stone, because he would certainly want to bring back his family
and loved ones. I'm sure Harry could have rationalized that he
would only call them back for a while, but once he had them,
could he let them go. He might spend his life clinging to
the dead and forgetting to live his own life. 

So, Ron chose strength that he hoped he could control. 
Hermione made the safe choice according to the story, and 
consistent with her own experience. The Cloak was tried and
proven, the other choices were dangerous. Harry chose the
one thing he couldn't and shouldn't have, the distraction of
his dead friends and family.


> 10. Did you, as I did, find the order in which Harry named his dear 
> departed notable?
> 

bboyminn:

I think I agree with Laura on this one.

"I think he names them in reverse order according to how 
difficult it is to admit that he needs them."

Though I would add that not only how much he needs them, but
how much he wants them. 


> 11. By this stage, the trio having being at the Lovegood house
> for some time, were you expecting Xenophilius to betray the 
> trio? Did you feel some sympathy with Xenophilius and his 
> reasons for being a Quisling or not given the status of the 
> WW at the time?
> 

bboyminn:

I suspected Xenophilius was up to something, but wasn't sure
what until the DE's arrived. Too many hints were dropped
about Xeno seeming to have an internal struggle, and he kept
looking out the window though he shouldn't have been able to
see anything but sky. Now if he had walked to the window
and kept looking out, I would have assumed he was looking for
Luna. 

I do have sympathy for Xeno, I'm sure he struggled greatly 
with his decision, but, if it meant getting his Luna back,
I can see why he would do it. Though, without a doubt, I think
it was a mistake on his part. 

I think Hermione has some sympathy for him too. I think she
knew that Luna was his world. And as the existed, she seemed
to act to protect Xeno. I'm sure Xeno is greatly shamed by 
his action. I suspect it will be years before he is willing
to show his face in public. I like to assume that Harry had
something to do with Xeno being forgiven, but that occurred
after the end of the books. 

> 12. Was it just the stunning spell that blasted the room apart
> or was something else also involved?
> 

bboyminn:

Hermione made such a big deal about the Erumpet(?) horn being
dangerous, that it had to serve some purpose in the moment.
So when the room exploded, it seemed logical that it was 
because the spell hit the volatile horn. 

> 13. Were you able to make the link between Selwyn and Umbridge
> at the time or did it not occur until later, or perhaps not 
> until you read this question?
> 

bboyminn:

Yes, I saw that immediately. It would seem fitting, though
despicable, that Umbridge would align herself with such a low
life, yet pure blood, as Selwyn. 

In OotP Umbridge was just a fanatical pest trying to re-enforce
the party line, but in the next two books, she is clearly
aligning herself, and very willingly, with forces of clear 
evil. She doesn't seem to care who she supports as long as 
she ends up on the winning side. I never hated her so much
as I hated her in DH. 


> 14. What is Deprimo, had it been previously heard of, and was
> its use necessary?
> 

bboyminn:

I think there are several new spell introduced in this book,
but they all seem to be explained by the context of their use
and actions, so I wasn't so much concerned about it.

Steve/bboyminn