CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 184787

> > Montavilla47:
> > I'm not sure what you mean by Dumbledore's efforts to reform the
> > Ministry.  I didn't see him ever make any effort in that regard.  
> 
> Pippin:
> He was head of the Wizengamot, an advocate for Muggle rights, tried to
> prevent miscarriages of justice, and discouraged the use of dementors.

Montavilla47:
Yes, but none of those things has to do with reforming the Ministry
itself.  The first is just a title, and the second two have to are really
more him voicing his opinions about certain policies than actively
working on changing the system.


Pippin:
> A Ministry of Magic  dedicated to democratic process rather than one
> man rule, concerned about justice rather than image, protective of
> Muggles and not dependent on dementors could only have been more
> resistant to Voldemort's influence.

Montavilla47:
Yes.  It would have been nice if Dumbledore had pushed for a more
democratic process and a more rigorous system of justice.  But I 
don't see him make any serious efforts in terms of justice and I 
certainly never see him even advocate a more democratic process--
if by "democratic" you mean holding elections to determine the 
leaders in Ministry.

> Montavilla: 
> > Perhaps Dumbledore saw the overtures to the giants and werewolves
> > as long shots, but I certainly didn't get that impression in GoF. 
> 
> Pippin:
> The object in  GoF was to get the *Ministry* to make overtures to the
> Giants. That would have been vastly different to Hagrid
> and Maxime on their own. At the very least, Hagrid and Maxime could
> have arrived much sooner than the DE's if they'd been allowed to use
> magic to travel and didn't need to detour to disguise their purpose.
> 
> Whether the Giants are stupid and ungovernable when they have
> sufficient resources for their needs and aren't engaged in a brutal
> civil war, is hard to say. If Grawp is a fair example, they're not. He
> was able to acquire a foreign language and civilized manners as an
> adult, despite what seems to have been a feral upbringing -- that
> shows intelligence and an ability to adapt, IMO. 

Montavilla47:
But whether or not they intelligent in another context, they *aren't*
in another situation.  They are in the situation that JKR created for 
them, which is one that makes them basically useless to either side.

Which is only a problem when you set them up to be important 
as either allies or enemies.  Because that sets up an expectation 
in the reader's mind.  We can't really be expected to read that 
scene in GoF and say to ourselves, "Hmm.  Dumbledore seems to 
think that this is important, but I think I'll wait and see what 
happens before I get too excited about Hagrid leaving on his 
dangerous mission."

I mean, if JKR wants us to end up thinking that Fudge was right
in this moment and that Dumbledore was being an alarmist, then
I guess she succeeded.  But I doubt that that was the intent.

> Montavilla: 
> > Okay.  How exactly would one of those long shots have prevented
> > Voldemort's takeover?  How would they have made a darn bit of 
> > difference?  The giants were stupid and unable to organize into 
> > any effective political or fighting force.   The only werewolf we
> ever saw (apart from Lupin and the guy he visited in St. Mungo's) was
> > Fenrir Greyback.  It's pretty obvious he'd stick with Voldemort
> > no matter what the other werewolves did, and we don't see any
> > other werewolves fighting for either side.
> > 
> > Nor, if the werewolves had come over to the Ministry (we don't 
> > actually know if they did or not), could they have been particularly
> > effective--unless they were sent to eat Death Eaters or something.
> 
> Pippin:
> At the end of GoF, Voldemort's forces consisted of thirty or so
> press-ganged wizards whose allegiance Voldemort himself considered to
> be extremely shaky, and who were just as frightened of Giants  as
> other wizards are. If the Ministry had taken the news of Voldemort's
> return seriously, if it had sought evidence against those whom Harry
> identified as DE's, if it had dismissed the dementors and let Azkaban
> be guarded by loyal Giants instead, who knows what would have happened?

Montavilla47:
Heh.  Isn't it odd that Dumbledore doesn't press Fudge to actually
investigate Cedric's death and the Death Eaters that Harry names?
I mean, do you really think that if the giants had decided to side 
with the Ministry that the Death Eaters would have decided to take 
off their masks and repudiate Voldemort?  Because it seems like
the best scenario for the Dumbledore side would simply have been
for the giants to stay where they were without getting involved at 
all.

On the other hand, the Ministry actually investigating Cedric's 
death might have accomplished something.  Such as putting 
several Death Eaters in prison.

Pippin:
> If wizards had actually known anything about werewolves, they might
> have realized there was not much reason to fear  Fenrir more than
> Voldemort's other thugs, when it wasn't full moon. In any case Fenrir
> could only be in one place at a time. But the fear of werewolves could
> be everywhere. 

Montavilla47:
In which case, an educational push might have been very effective.  I 
used to think that Lupin was originally part of a grand educational 
project of Dumbledore to show the wizarding world that werewolves
were humans with treatable conditions, and which did not need to 
feared.  But, if you think about it, either Lupin was a grand failure 
(due to the Prank), or Dumbledore was only interested in helping
*one* werewolf.  Because we're told that Fenrir made a habit of 
biting children, and that Lupin was one of his first victims, and yet
we never hear about any other werewolves being educated at 
Hogwarts.

> > Montavilla47:
> > When did Lupin give up?  I saw him complaining about his assignment,
> > but I never saw him give it up.
> 
> Pippin:
> "I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is
> making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves
> deserve blood, that we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people."
> -HBP 16
> 
> That's  a prediction of failure, and Lupin's presence at the Weasleys
> and later at Hogwarts confirms that he's come in from the cold. 

Montavilla47:
I don't really see that.  I see the prediction, which could indicate 
eventual failure.  But it could simply be discouragement.  His
presence at the Weasleys only indicates to me that he was invited
there for Christmas.  We don't really know where these werewolf
peers are.  They might all be living in the woods, or they might all
be meeting Thursday nights for poker.  There's nothing to say
that Lupin can't both be making overtures to the werewolves and
enjoying an occasional holiday with the Weasleys.  

Likewise, his presence at Hogwarts only indicates that he was at 
Hogwarts.  It doesn't indicate that either or Dumbledore has given
up on the werewolves.  Who never put in an appearance in any case.

> Pippin:
> > > Plotwise, of course, JKR needed a way to keep Hagrid and Lupin
> > > offstage for long periods but still available for their parts in
> the last book. 
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > I have to disagree with even this statement.  The only time JKR
> > *needed* Hagrid offstage was when Harry arrived late at Hogwarts.
> > (If Hagrid hadn't been visiting his brother, he could just as easily
>  have been busy escorting the firsties across the lake at that moment.
> And, by the way, I wonder who got stuck with that job in HBP?)
> 
> Pippin:
> JKR needed Hagrid offstage in OOP so that Harry could feel abandoned
> at Hogwarts, and so that Umbridge could have a free rein. I don't
> suppose Hagrid would have taken kindly to finding out that Harry was
> getting words carved on his hand, whatever Dumbledore and McGonagall
> said. 

Montavilla47:
Harry still had those words carved on his hand when Hagrid showed 
up, and yet Hagrid didn't do anything about them.  I doubt he would
have done anything earlier, either.  Nor did Hagrid have any power to 
stop Umbridge from doing anything (unless he were to sic an 
acromantula on her).   The opposite was true.  It was Umbridge who
reined Hagrid in, quite severely.

> Montavilla:
> > The obsession with Lupin's activities was more likely fueled by
> > the idea (planted by that ending scene in GoF) that the werewolves
> > were ZOMG IMPORTANT!  
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> Huh? 
> 
> IIRC, there wasn't anything about overtures to the werewolves in GoF.
> Sirius was told to hole up with Lupin. Obviously Lupin was not engaged
> in a secret mission to the werewolves at that time. There was a
> throwaway line in OOP about Lupin's mysterious missions, but we didn't
> find out what he was up to until HBP, when he filled us in, but also
> let us know he wasn't getting anywhere. 

Montavilla47:
You're quite right.  I was misremembering.  It was the Dementors
that Dumbledore was excited about.  And that did turn out to be
somewhat significant in OotP, since the Dementors helped 
facilitate the breakout (I think?)  

I apologize.  I guess we wildly speculated on Lupin's role on our 
own.  But I do think that his bringing up his mission in HBP did 
raise a bit of expectaion about the werewolves having some
significance.  Presumably Dumbledore wasn't just sending Lupin
out on this mission to make him miserable.  Or maybe he was.

Or, maybe Lupin succeeded.  Maybe if he hadn't tried 
to keep the werewolves from joining Voldemort, there would
have been lot of them fighting that night.  It's kind of hard to 
know, especially since there wasn't a full moon.

But the werewolves is minor compared to the giants.  Because
with the giants it wasn't a throwaway line here and there.  It was
Dumbledore insisting on an embassy.  It was Hagrid heroically
leaving Harry at the end of GoF and much Trio speculation in 
the first half of OotP.  It was an entire chapter devoted to 
Hagrid's adventures in the mountains.  It was another chapter or
three dealing with Grawp.  

That's a lot of page time devoted to something that ultimately
became irrelevant.