CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 184815

Thanks for the synopsis and questions, Carol!

> Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1.  Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape
> as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP?

Montavilla47:
Very interesting question.  I think it's because the Prince is the 
part of Snape that Harry empathizes with.  In the Flight of the
Prince, we got the revelation that Snape was the Prince, and by
returning to that name, JKR signals Harry's potential sympathy
for what he witnesses.

> 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their]
> dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the
> Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you
> think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead?

Montavilla47:
Hmm.  Well, they could blast graves with their wands.  I think he 
just means take them off the field while everyone prepares to 
leave fresh corpses there.  It, of course, reminds me of the scene
in Henry V, where Mountjoy comes to King Hal after the battle
Agincourt to seek respite in which the French can count and bury
their dead.  (It must have taken them a long time, seeing how many
they lost in that battle.)

I find it rather humorous, given the way we (general we) readers
tend to view Voldemort as completely self-absorbed that he's 
careful to follow the niceties of battle.  You rarely see super-
villains take time to give the opposition a breather.  He was
far less thoughtful about his followers, when he slaughtered a 
roomful of them for letting Harry get away.

> 3.  Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking,
> apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This
> description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP--
> "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms
> and legs, he might have been sleeping"—and that of his peacefully
> sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death
> through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general
> or only to these particular deaths?

Montavilla47:
It may be partially staying within the limitations of children's literature.
How disturbing do you want to be, knowing that nine-year-olds will
be reading this book, and seven-year-olds will be listening to it?

In pondering this question, it suddenly struck me that there isn't
one natural death in the entire series (not that there's any reason
there should be one).  Everyone who dies is either murdered, or 
dies from childbirth or in prison.  (Except, did Marvolo starve to
death?  I forget.)  And yet, they never seem to suffer much.  Everyone
pretty much dies instantaneously--looking either peaceful or 
surprised.

But I do think JKR's general depiction of death is that it's painless
and peaceful--compared to the struggle of life.

> 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway
> leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think
> the password changed and who or what changed it?

Montavilla47:
It seems obvious to me that Snape changed it after becoming 
Headmaster.  Although, perhaps McGonagall changed it during
her brief tenure and Snape never bothered to change it to 
something else.  I can imagine him finding the whole idea 
a waste of time.

> 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the
> narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott
> in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little
> Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the
> two Slytherin boys?

Montavilla47:
I didn't really think of Theodore Nott.  The only connection I can see is
that they are both Slytherin and both loners.


> 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in his
> oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats?

Montavilla47:
I'm not sure, although I think it's a nice image.  You really get a strong
impression of what he looks like in just one word.  Isn't there something
about bats being connected to death and the underworld?  Like 
messengers or something?


> 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle-
> borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle-
> born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can
> do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical
> ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would
> he make that remark in that context?

Montavilla47:
She might be mean magic (since she hasn't had the opportunity to 
practice like a wizarding child might), and he might mean social
prejudice.  But, it's natural for a young girl to worry about "fitting
in" in a new school that comes with a ready-made social structure.
So, LIly might have been worried about being an outsider.

> 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are
> sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good
> and evil and age nine or ten?

Montavilla47:
It sounds like a typical ten-year-old way of looking at the world.  Bad
people get put in jail, good people don't need to worry about stuff 
like that.


> 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch
> on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant"
> expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate.
> Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar
> happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless?

Montavilla47:
I'm biased, but I think it was accidental.  Even if it is outside of Snape's
control, he knows too much (unlike Harry at that age) to ignore the 
idea that his anger at Petunia could cause magic to happen.  

As for why it doesn't happen when James and Sirius are tormenting
him, wandless magic seems to be more accidental and less controlled.

Here's an analogy.  Suppose as a Muggle child, "Sam" reacts to stress
by throwing up.  As he gets older, he learns to control that,
so, even though he is in a very stressful situation when he's sixteen, 
it's so ingrained in him to resist the urge to vomit that he no longer 
can do it--even if it might be an effective defense mechanism to 
vomit on the bullies. :)

> 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses
> in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you
> see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to
> Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection
> with the Statute of Secrecy?

Montavilla47:
Since you point it out, I can't wondering if Dumbledore explained
it to her in similar (if less insulting) terms.  It certainly seems like
a kind way of letting Petunia down to explain that it's for the 
safety of Muggles that wizards choose to segregate themselves in
a school she can't attend.


> 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier
> onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)?

Montavilla47:
I always assumed that the entrance was merely hidden during the 
time that the Hogwarts Express is loading and disembarking 
passengders.  When the barrier is closed, even Harry and Ron 
can't through, even though they are magical.  When it's open, 
there's nothing to say it couldn't be open to Muggles, too.  

It's just that most Muggles don't know it's there at all.  (Until JKR
spilled the beans!)

> 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave,
> wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What
> do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House
> prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary
> Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry?

Montavilla47:
I thought she was deliberately trying to draw parallels and freak out
the people who assumed that when Dumbledore compared Snape and
James to Harry and Draco, it was supposed to be Draco=Snape and not
Draco=James.

I thought James was cute raising his little Gryffindor sword.  


> 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya,
> Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so?

Montavilla47:
I don't know why she didn't identify him.  I think it was Sirius,
simply because he seemed to enjoy the nickname so much.

> 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting
> Severus's back? Why include that detail?

Montavilla47:
I think it shows that Snape truly did belong to Slytherin in that
they welcomed him immediately.  I think it shows something 
nice about Lucius.  He's sensitive enough to know this little
boy needs assurance and he gives.  I'll bet he was a terrific
prefect.


> 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank—Severus "sneaking" around
> the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down
> there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone
> in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is
> Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects
> Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)?

Montavilla47:
Yes.  I think Lily's source was most likely Sirius.  Only because it 
would be *too* much for James to toot his horn about saving 
Snape.  Any decent wingman would puff James up to Lily by
telling him how heroic James was.

About why she rejects the theory:  She probably likes Lupin as a 
friend and it annoys her to have Snape spinning this crazy theory 
about him.  Also, I get the strong impression that Lily is looking
for reasons to push Snape away.  He's hurting her socially in her
House and she probably tired of his whining and general 
losertude.


> 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why
> do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single
> paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on
> page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury
> edition.)  Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape
> shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word:
> Mudblood."

Montavilla47:
Hmm.  I think it's okay if you're as obsessive as we (general we
of this yahoogroup) are.  It's already a long chapter, but it might 
have been nice to tell us a bit more about how Harry now interprets
the scene.  But, you do point out that JKR describes Snape as 
shouting in "humiliation and fury," which is a kinder interpretation
than in OotP.


> 17.  The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly
> sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often
> at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue-tied
> in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in
> the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at
> Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that
> we encounter in SS/PS?

Montavilla47:
I think that it was more that the scenes we see in the Pensieve are 
ones where Snape is stressed out.  Hes trying *so hard* to be friends
with Lily that he can barely form words--something Harry can 
identify with from when he was unable to string together the words 
to ask Cho out in GoF.  

> 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I
> know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set
> out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"?

Montavilla47:
I took that to mean that Harry would have then destroyed the other
Horcruxes.  As usual, Dumbledore was overestimating Harry's 
abilities.  Harry didn't quite manage the task and Neville had to finish
it for him.  That's not a complaint or a slam against Harry.  I like that
it was a group effort.

> 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses
> these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge
> against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his
> second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's
> death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change
> of heart and why?

Montavilla47:
It's hard not to find that little boy adorable in his oversized clothes.  But
I'm guessing it was Snape meeting with Dumbledore (and the following
memory where Harry sees Snape's overwhelming grief) that changed 
Harry's mind about Snape.  Or started to change it.  

> 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter?
> Why did *Snape* choose them?

Montavilla47:
I think Snape wanted to convery a few simple things to Harry.
1. He was friends with LIly.
2. He lost her friendship because of his interested in Dark Arts and 
stupidity in joining Voldemort.
3. He promised to protect Harry.
4. He wasn't a coward.  Dumbledore said so.
5. He wasn't a Death Eater.  He tried to save people--even though
he often failed.
6. Harry needs to allow Voldemort to kill him.  It's what Dumbledore
planned.
7. Even Dead!Dumbledore's plans are pretty good ones.

> 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What
> surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of
> the chapter the first time through?

Montavilla47:
It confirmed my view of Snape as being Dumbledore's man.
I was surprised at how callous Lily and Dumbledore were towards
Snape.  I was disappointed in how manipulative Dumbledore was.