CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale

Tue Nov 11 17:44:14 UTC 2008

No: HPFGUIDX 184825

"justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ... > wrote:> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter
> 33, The Prince's Tale
> 
> 1.  Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape
„« as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP?

Potioncat:
Perhaps she, like her more discerning fans, sees the true worth of 
this Prince of a Man. It really is interesting. Why "did' she choose 
to give him the name "Half Blood Prince", and why she refers to him 
as "the prince." JKR herself seems conflicted about Snape. She seems 
to find him horrible yet worthy.

She has done a nice job of pairing off the two sets of chapters that 
deal with the Prince. We have the Lightening Struck Tower followed by 
the Flight of the Prince in HBP, compared to the Elder Wand and The 
Prince's Tale in DH.

I was watching a documentary about WB last night. The section was on 
movies made just before and during WWII--to show how to behave in 
war. A very horrible character turns himself around and shows real 
bravery, but the narrator says, "courage alone is never enough for 
redemption" and I couldn't help but think of JKR. (the character 
sacrifices himself for the rest of the company.) Maybe courage is 
enough for her.

> 
> 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of 
[their]
> dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the
> Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you
„« think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead?

Potioncat:
What does happen to the dead? Are they evanesced (or a similar spell) 
to the MoM morgue? Because, I don't think they are still lined up in 
the middle of the hall for the battle.  We see the bodies being 
gathered and brought inside, but surely that's not where they would 
stay.

 IMHO, LV is really driving home the losses by offering them the 
opportunity to gather their dead.  Besides, he really expects Harry 
to come to him, and may think Harry is more to likely to come during 
the truce  if he doesn't feel compelled to protect his friends in 
battle.

> 
> 3.  Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking,
> apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This
> description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP--
> "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his 
arms
> and legs, he might have been sleeping"¡Xand that of his peacefully
> sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death
> through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in 
general
„« or only to these particular deaths?

Potioncat:
In interviews JKR has expressed a belief in an Afterlife, although 
she also expresses a difficulty with in maintaining the belief. So, 
for the purposes of this story, I think she is showing death as a 
next step in our existence.  All along, her higher quality characters 
accept death--it's only LV who fears death, and the ghosts who are 
afraid to go on.

It's also interesting that Lupin and Tonks are shown as peaceful-
looking, because we will see Lupin very shortly, already very 
comfortable in his new existence. 

> 
> 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway
> leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think
„« the password changed and who or what changed it?

Potioncat:
There have been some very interesting answers to this question. But I 
think Snape set it. I think Harry yelled it out without thinking, 
because of the clues. Snape giving him memories that he needs DD's 
Pensieve to retrieve. "Pensieve!" might have been a good guess too. 
Snape is very unlikely to use a candy as the password.

But the idea that the castle itself decided to let him is 
interesting, or that DD set it before he died. We really don't know 
if the castle refused entry to Umbridge because it did not accept 
her, or because DD "locked" the office. 

Still, I vote for Snape, for all the reasons others have given.

> 
> 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the
> narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott
> in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of 
little
> Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between 
the
„« two Slytherin boys?

Potioncat:
We've seen a similar description of Severus and Theo before. Was it 
weedy? So I've always sort of linked these two characters. I don't 
know if JKR intended there to be a link. Some of us have given Theo a 
much bigger role that JKR has. I don't know if she ever planned for 
him to have much more page time. (There is a missing scene between 
him and Draco.) ah ha! Another link! Theo is almost as mysterious as 
Severus is.

> 
> 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in 
his
„« oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats?

Potioncat:
This follows adult Snape's flying out the window like a giant bat. 
JRK isn't letting go of the image that she started early on. 

>From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184820
> Pippin:
> > Because he's a vampire! (Sorry, sorry) But Siriusly, the oversize
> > clothes are an obvious parallel with Harry. Perhaps Snape is 
wearing
> > his father's hand-me-downs? Here, the bat comparison makes Snape 
> > look comical, where as in earlier canon it made him menacing. So 
„« > perhaps this is JKR's way of, er,  de-fanging the bat metaphor.

Potioncat:
All good points, especially the parallel to Harry. Readers make much 
of Severus being a loner, but before Hogwarts Harry was also 
friendless and wore clothes that displeased the neighbors. The 
comical vrs menacing contrast is good too. JKR was able to go back 
and still use the same description, even though it gives a different 
impression.
> 
> SSSusan: (also from 184820)
> Or perhaps it was her way of having a nice laugh along with us... 
> sort of one last nod to the fans who had long held the belief in 
„« vampire!Snape.  >

Potioncat:
SSSusan!  I might have expected this of Alla <g> but I wasn't 
laughing in this chapter. 

Actually, JKR has used animal images for most of the characters. I 
think she's channeling Beatrix Potter. Ginny is usually described in 
feline terms, but I'm not sure if JKR continued that one. I think she 
was taking this description to the max.  Did anyone bring up in the 
last chapter discussion that Ron made reference to Snape as a flying 
bat in GoF?

I really did expect the bat image to turn into a Hebridean Black 
dragon image.

> 
> 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree 
branch
> on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant"
> expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate.
> Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar
„« happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless?

Potioncat:
I don't think he's exactly lying. To an 11-year-old, not doing it on 
purpose is the same as not doing it. I think it was accidental magic. 
We see Lily working some very advanced wandless magic. I wonder if 
that was a flint? It certainly puts her into a class with Tom Riddle.

Like others have said, accidental magic is something that just 
doesn't happen after a certain age. But this reminds me of the 
bursting jar of cockroaches in OoP. We've considered that it may have 
been accidental magic.

>  
> 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier
„« onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)?

Potioncat:
The same way the Grangers got into Diagon Alley. I'm sure there is 
some method to allow Muggles into Hogwarts or onto Platform 9 3/4 
when necessary.

> 
> 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave,
> wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What
> do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House
> prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary
„« Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry?

Potioncat:
Well, it set up many of us to think we were going to see a reversal 
of stereotyped House traits. It may have been JKR's way of showing 
how bad James and Sirius were. But to be honest, I still don't get 
her purpose.

> 
> 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya,
„« Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so?

Potioncat:
I thin k it was Sirius, as someone else said, James already got his 
cut in. But on the other hand, I don't think it's as important to JKR 
as it is to us.

> 
> 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting
„« Severus's back? Why include that detail?

Potioncat: I don't know. Does Lucius assume that anyone who's 
selected into Slytherin must be of good blood? Or is it that true 
Purebloods are so rare, that even the Purebloods don't get too upset 
at half-bloods? Or at least not at those with the right attitude.

Thanks, Carol, for a great summary and questions. I'll respond to the 
other questions at a later time.