CHAPDISC: DH30, THE SACKING OF SEVERUS SNAPE

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184503

Oryomai wrote:

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
> Chapter 30:The Sacking of Severus Snape
> <Snip delightful summary>

Carol:
Thanks for your mischievous tone, which made a summary I was dreading
enjoyable to read. You left out one detail that I liked, unrelated to
Snape: the photo of turquoise-haired Teddy. Otherwise, great job. (Do
you really think that Snape's "master" taught him to fly? It's
McGonagall's assumption, and she's wrong about his loyalties, in any
case.)
> 
> Questions!!
> 1.How do you feel about Luna being the one to stun Alecto?  Is it
notable that one of the "extras" from the DoM battle is the one to
help Harry out?

Carol:
I'm glad that the DA lessons finally came in handy. (We see that again
later with the Patronus Charms.) And, yes, I like having Luna Stun
Alecto. It shows that she's not just a "weirdo" with eccentric beliefs
and behavior; she's a talented witch in her own right, and
quick-thinking, too. (If not for her answering the riddle, Harry
couldn't have gotten inside the Ravenclaw common room before
mcGonagall came. And Harry doesn't need to do everything. Good for Luna!
> 
> 2.Professor McGonagall was easily able to figure out the riddle to
open the Ravenclaw entrance. What does this say about her Sorting?
I've never found her to be incredibly brave but have always found her
to be very smart.

Carol responds:
Probably she's like Hermione and would have been Sorted into Ravenclaw
if she hadn't desperately wanted to be in Gryffindor. I just wish
she'd show more appreciation for the other Houses, especially
Ravenclaw, with which she clearly has an affinity, instead of being
such a Gryffindor partisan.
 
> 3.More interestingly (to me anyway) is the fact that the Carrows had
to have Professor Flitwick *let* them into the common room. Do you
think they tried to enter but got Professor Flitwick out of
frustration, or do you think they thought there was a password?  How
does the fact that some people, like Professor McGonagall, seem to
know things about the castle that the Death Eaters don't affect the
upcoming battle?

Carol:
I was disturbed that Flitwick allowed a known Death Eater (Alecto)
into the Ravenclaw common room. (He didn't let Amycus in; McGonagall
did.) You'd think Flitwick would have more concern for his own House,
or insisted on staying there with her (as McGonagall did with Amycus)
to make sure that she didn't hurt the students. Maybe she forced him
to do it by Crucioing him, but, still, it doesn't say much for
Flitwick's courage that he yielded to her will. Or maybe she
threatened to burn down the Ravenclaw common room if he didn't let her
in. Whether Alecto tried to answer the riddle or not doesn't really
matter in terms of her ability to get in; she'd be no more able to
answer a Ravenclaw riddle than Amycus was. I'm not sure that
McGonagall knows things about the castle that the Death Eaters don't;
she just knows how to think logically (as Flitwick also does). Had
Snape been asked the riddle, I'm sure he'd have had no more trouble
with it than McGonagall did (or Luna did with hers).
> 
> 4.Do you think Harry would have Crucio'd Amycus if he had not felt
that rush of affection for Professor McGonagall moments before?  A
Stunning Spell would have worked just as well and would have had the
added bonus of not alerting Amycus to the fact that he was, in fact,
in the Tower. (I'd like to avoid the moral points of the Crucio by
Harry, but that's like trying to avoid discussing Severus' teaching
methods!)

Carol:
It's hard to say whether the rush of affection had anything to do with
it. I think his blood was boiling at the insult to the Head of his
House (who still considered him her student), and he was itching for
revenge. (He'd been wanting to fight Snape since the "murder" of
Dumbledore, and Amycus was a handy target for his rage.) I don't like
anything about that scene, especially Harry's attacking from under the
Invisibility Cloak: If you're going to use an Unforgiveable Curse, at
least let the victim (however deserving of his pain) see his attacker.
I'm not going to repeat my reasons for wishing that JKR had made Harry
use some other curse. We've been on that treadmill too many times and
have not progressed a single inch. I like your point about not
alerting Amycus that he was in the tower. He should have followed
Luna's example. We don't see *her* using Unforgiveable Curses.
Gallant, my eye! and McG follows his example! (Carol mutters for
awhile and moves on to the next question.) 
> 
> 5.Why does Harry tell Professor McGonagall that Voldemort is on the
way to the castle when in reality he is on his way to check on the
Horcrux? At this point, the jig is pretty much up: Harry's in the
castle, there are Death Eaters everywhere, and he needs help.  He's
used lies of omission on everyone else, why not Professor McGonagall?

Carol responds:
Well, Voldemort *is* on his way to Hogwarts. He just needs to make a
side trip or two before he gets there. He's promised Dumbledore not to
tell anyone except Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes (he refused to
tell McG at the end of HBP also). There's really no point in taking
time to tell her about the Horcruxes; he job (and it's important) is
to protect the students and prepare for Voldemort's attack. I don't
entirely approve of her methods and her attitude, but she does summon
the Heads of Houses and order an evacuation of all but the of-age
students.
> 
> 6.Has there ever been any outrage about Professor McGonagall using
the Imperius Curse on Amycus? If not, why not?

Carol:
I've commented on it, for one. I don't like her calling the Crucio
gallant, and I don't like her following Harry's example by using an
Unforgiveable Curse of her own. Harry's Imperius Curses in the
Gringotts chapter were necessary; they were in immediate peril.
McGonagall could have accomplished her goal in some other way. I think
she just enjoyed making the man who had spat on her and Cruciod her
students do her bidding like a humble House Elf. "Outrage" is too
strong a word for my personal feelings, but annoyance and
disappointment and disapproval, certainly. (And before anyone
concludes that I sympathize in any way with Amycus or Alecto, let me
make it clear that I despise them. I just think that the good guys
should be nobler than their enemies and not use the Darkest curses
without absolute necessity. It's not as if she weren't more than a
match for both of them together just using Transfiguration!)
> 
> 7.What do you think is the significance of Professor McGonagall
*finally* believing Harry about something that is going on at the
school (Quirrell stealing the Philsopher's Stone anyone?)?  Does it
have more to do with Dumbledore or more to the fact that Harry has
managed to survive several months with the Death Eaters trying to kill
him at every turn?

Carol:
I think it has to do with Voldemort's being obviously back and Harry's
returning to a school run by supposed Death Eater Snape, surely a
desperate measure that he wouldn't take unless LV were really
attacking. But, yes, the fact that Death Eaters could get into the
school and Dumbledore could be killed and the fact that Harry has
evaded the DEs for something like ten months would both predispose her
to believe Harry in any case.
> 
> 8.Can Severus see through invisibility cloaks?  If not, why does he
always seem to know that Harry is around?  Severus never catches him
in the cloak, but he always seems aware that Harry is there.

Carol responds:
It's possible that he can see through Invisibility Cloaks. Scenes in
SS/PS and GoF suggest that possibility. Certainly he would know the
spell that both Hermione and Travers use, Hominum Revelio, and we know
he's an expert at nonverbal spells. On the tower, though, he wouldn't
need a spell to know that Harry was there. He could deduce as much
from the presence of a second broom. In this instance, I think he
simply knows that Harry is coming (he'd have received the same message
as the Carrows and expected him to show up in Ravenclaw tower). He may
have even overheard Luna answering the riddle and letting herself and
Harry into Ravenclaw tower. He seems to be looking around anxiously
for Harry; his mind is clearly on the message he needs to deliver and
not on what McGonagall is saying. (Of course, he snaps into action
pretty quickly when he realizes that she wants to kill him!)
> 
> 9.What do you think would have happened if Severus had found Harry
alone?  Would Severus have told him everything?  Would he blow his cover?

Carol:
Oh, my goodness, what a wide field for fanfic and speculation this
question opens up! I would say that, yes, absolutely, he'd have blown
his cover, even if it meant freezing Harry and forcing him to listen.
He has one quick means of persuasion, his Patronus. I'm not sure that
he would have told him "everything," meaning the whole story of his
relationship with Lily, but he would have had to tell him why he
killed Dumbledore at the very least. Maybe he would have forced him to
enter the headmaster's office and talk to Dumbledore's portrait, but
that seems unlikely. At any rate, once he mentioned Voldemort
protecting Nagini and keeping her close, Harry would have been forced
to listen. Only Dumbledore could have told Snape that such a thing
might happen. And only Dumbledore would have told Snape that Harry had
a soul bit in his scar. It would have been a challenge, but I think
Snape could have managed it. Dumbledore, who could not have
anticipated the circumstances of Snape's death, must have believed it,
too.
> 
> 10.Severus leaps out the window and flies away.  Do you think this
was, at any point, part of the plan?  What do you think his plan was
before? Do you think he has any idea what's to come?

Carol:
I don't think it's part of his plan, which was only to talk to Harry.
He doesn't yet know that Voldemort is keeping Nagini close, but
clearly, it's now or never. I don't think he fights in the battle at
all; I think he spends the time before Lucius Malfoy tells him that
the Dark Lord wants to see him looking for Harry. That's his
all-important mission. He knows it's dangerous but he's used to
danger; I don't think he senses till he's in the Shrieking Shack that
it will be his last. What he would have done if McGonagall hadn't
driven him out, I don't know. He doesn't blow his cover to her, but he
doesn't hurt her, either. (And, for crying out loud, McGonagall, the
password to Snape's office is "Dumbledore!" How big a hint do you
need?) I think he didn't dare to think or hope beyond the death of
Voldemort. Then, maybe, he'd have thought about mundane matters like
his career and reputation. Now, all that matters is that Harry get the
message to sacrifice himself and defeat Voldemort by allowing the
destruction of the soul bit. (I do wonder when, why, and how Snape
learned to fly. If it's a "trick" that he learned from his "master,"
he must have been in high favor indeed with Voldemort, who didn't
teach that skill to any other follower. But it's just possible that he
taught himself based on Voldemort's example. It's probably wishful
thinking in the extreme to think that maybe Voldemort copied him!
> 
> 11.Can you even imagine being Ginny at this point?  Your whole
family (and basically everyone you've ever met) is going to fight for
the freedom of your entire world, and they want you to stay behind.
Would anyone have listened?

Carol:
I have very little empathy for Ginny, but I do know what it's like to
be overprotected (in my case because I was a girl, even though I was
the eldest child). And I have enough experience with sixteen-year-olds
in general to know that most of them wouldn't listen to such an order.
I would probably have had to rush out after my younger brother and
sister and try to protect them. *They* wouldn't have listened for sure.)
> 
> 12.Oh Percy Weasley.  Where to even begin?  Did you think he would
be back?  Were you secretly hoping that he would battling his brothers
American Civil War style because he was a Death Eater the entire time?
 Did you think there'd be any resolution of his storyline?  I'm
interested in what everyone else thought would happen to Percy.

Carol:
I was sure he'd be back, and, no, I never thought that he was a Death
Eater, only hurt by the way his family treated him, swollen with
self-importance, and deluded (as Fudge was) by Dolores Umbridge. I
thought he'd be the Weasley who died. I used to imagine his hand, and
only his, on the Weasley clock moving to Mortal Peril as his mother
watched in horror and his family realized, too late, that they loved
him despite his pomposity, stubbornness, and devotion to the Ministry.
His very real concern for Ron when he wades out into the water after
the Second Task gave us a glimpse of the real Percy who loves his
family and would risk death for them, as he does in DH. Interesting
that it's Fred more than George who provides Percy with the
opportunity to apologize, and I loved the way Percy responds, "Yes, I
was" to Fred's list of transgressions: "Ministry-loving,
family-disowning, power-hungry moron!" And, as Fred says, "You can't
say fairer than that!" It's my favorite scene in an otherwise painful
chapter.

> 13.Why didn't Ron and Hermione tell anyone where they were going?
Did they just look at each other, say something, and run off?

Carol:
I think they figured that while Harry was busy looking for the
Ravenclaw Horcrux, they'd better get busy and destroy the cup, which
he obviously had no time to do. And Ron's experience destroying the
locket Horcrux, including Harry's opening it using Parseltongue, would
naturally have reminded him of his earlier experience with the Chamber
of Secrets. (Remind me again, somebody, how they could have gotten
back up the pipes into the girls' bathroom without Fawkes to carry
them and without being able to Apparate inside Hogwarts.)
> 
> 14.In my opinion, Harry's realization that Voldemort is outside of
Hogwarts is one of the most important moments of the book. This is
when he realizes that, whatever the outcome, the battle for the
wizarding world is going to end tonight.   What do you think?  Why
> did the Creatrix choose the end the chapter on this note?

Carol responds:
No idea, unless it's because the next chapter is "The Battle of
Hogwarts" and everything that follows depends on Voldemort's being at
the school. But whose murder is he contemplating, Harry's or Snape's?
(Surely Harry's since it's Harry who's stolen the Horcruxes, but it's
Snape who dies.)
> 
> 15.  The title of this chapter is "The Sacking of Severus Snape."
What does that mean to you?  What did you think it meant at the
beginning of the chapter?  What does it mean to you now?

Carol responds:
You have no idea how excruciating this chapter was for me when I first
read it, having bought the book around 1 a.m., started reading it
around 2 a.m., and gone not only without sleep but almost without food
or water in my desperate need to know what would happen to all the
characters, but most of all to Snape. In that dark hour--actually it
was daytime, but it felt like deepest night--I thought I'd been
betrayed again. First, JKR has Snape kill Dumbledore and now he's
fighting McGonagall. He's wicked after all! Never trust to my sanity
under such circumstances! After raging impotently for what seemed like
an hour, I skipped ahead to "the Prince's Tale," read it through,
realized that I'd put Percy Weasley to shame in my display of idiocy,
reread the Snape scene, and then went on with the book. I still think
that McGonagall got it wrong about the headmaster's having "done a
bunk." If he'd survived the battle, he'd have returned to his position
as headmaster. After all, Dumbledore frequently took unauthorized
leaves of absence and no one ever accused him of dereliction of duty
(not counting Lucius Malfoy in CoS). The main difference, I suppose,
is that Dumbledore died on the school grounds; Snape died in the
Shrieking Shack. Quite possibly the portraits or the headmaster's
office itself didn't even know that he was dead, which would explain
why his portrait didn't immediately appear. (Sorry. Jumping ahead.) At
any rate, Snape was never "sacked." McGonagall was his subordinate,
not the other way around. Nor did the Ministry, which hired him, ever
fire him. It's just a provacative and alliterative title for the
chapter. FWIW, I expected HBP to end with a sacking when some act of
Snape's seemed to reveal him as a loyal DE. But as far as I'm
concerned, Severus Snape was never sacked. He died as Hogwarts Headmaster.
> 
> 
> 16.Anything else I missed?  Are there any questions anyone had about
this chapter that I didn't cover?

Carol:
Just the bits about Teddy's turquoise hair and Snape's being taught by
his "master" to fly, both of which I've already mentioned. I'm
reminded of Snape's use in HBP of "*your* master," not "our master,"
to Draco. Voldemort ceased to be Snape's master in terms of loyalty
the moment he threatened Lily.
> 
> Oryomai
> Who attempted to keep her deep deep love of Severus Snape from
completely taking over the chapter discussion!

Carol:
You did much better than I would have done. I could never have borne
to write the chapter discussion for this chapter, and worse is to come.

Carol, who will likewise attempt objectivity in her discussion of "The
Prince's Tale" in November but won't try to match Oryomai's inimitable
style!