Caring about people

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 184552

> Carol responds:
> But you're defining "legitimate purpose" differently than Portrait!
DD
> does. For him, it's of the utmost importance not only to save 
Harry's
> life but to get Snape into Hogwarts as headmaster to protect the
> students to the best of his ability.
> Snape's revelation serves what DD considers to be a legitimate 
purpose
> in that it makes a difference to *Voldemort*, who will be ready to
> reward this seemingly loyal follower with any thing he asks ("The
> headmastership at Hogwarts, my lord?"). that Snape has already 
killed
> DD supposedly on LV's orders is insufficient. He has to *remain* in
> LV's good graces. He cannot slip up by failing to provide 
information
> from his unnamed "source" (surely Mundungus). 

Magpie:
So Dumbledore is supposed to know that Voldemort will randomly not 
consider Snape not murdering Dumbledore to be proof of his 
loyalty...but will consider it proof if Snape finds out that Harry is 
being moved 2 days early and passes that info at all? That's 
completely backwards to me. The first action is far more a proof of 
loyalty and if that didn't do it, this shouldn't either. Besides, is 
there anyone else we're supposed to think would have been the 
headmaster if Snape hadn't happened to come across this bit of 
information? Snape's already the most qualified, most proven, and 
most accomplished. 

Snape hasn't slipped up and he just killed Dumbledore--it makes just 
as much sense--no, MORE sense--that he would be rewarded for killing 
Dumbledore than for continuing to provide information from his 
unnamed source. A source that would have perfectly good reason for 
drying up, btw, once Snape reveals himself to be a DE. He just outed 
himself as a spy--it's possibly more suspicious for him to still have 
sources inside DD's camp a week later.

Carol:
> 
Not telling LV would
> arouse LV's suspicions about Snape, and even if he weren't killed, 
he
> would lose that essential position as LV's favorite, continuing to
> earn what passes for LV's trust while really serving DD's cause and
> Harry's.

Magpie:
There's no reason at all it should arouse suspicions, nor should 
Snape lose particular favor over it. If he'd let the other guy's info 
stand it's the other guy who would have lost favor. Snape's outed 
himself as a DE. He's got good reason not to know about new plans.

Carol:
> 
> The revelation, thoug it seems to increase the Order's danger,
> actually makes *no* difference to them or to Harry, whose escape 
will
> be detected and LV notified instantly whether Snape reveals the time
> and date or not. What makes the difference for Harry and the Order 
is
> the Poly-juiced Potters plan.

Magpie:
It makes the difference between the DEs waiting for them and the DEs 
having to play catch up, no matter how quickly they can do that. A 
matter of seconds is a huge difference in a plan like this. There's 
no reason they themselves shouldn't have known about it as well. 
They're the ones given the disadvantage of surprise here by 
Dumbledore.

 
> Alla wrote: 
> > Because you see, I am just not seeing how Dumbledore's plan was 
> better. It just seems to me to be a plain common sense that when 
one 
> does covert operation, it is better NOT to tell the enemy what you 
are
> doing.
> 
> Carol responds:
> You don't see how the Seven Potters diversion is better than a 
single
> Harry? 

Magpie:
No, I think she means she doesn't see how Dumbledore telling the DEs 
what day they're leaving in advance is a good ideas. The Seven 
Potters if fine--that's the plan everybody agrees to in the story. 
Alla (I think--correct me if I'm wrong, Alla) is asking why once that 
plan is in place it's such a great idea to gives the DEs just a 
little bit of help in thwarting them instead of giving themselves 
that extra advantage. 

It seems like this little advantage is being counted as important on 
the DE side (it will totally get Snape the headmastership and is the 
only thing keeping him Voldemort's favorite) but not on the Order 
side (it makes no difference if the DEs are told--they'd know 
anyway). I think that's out of proportion on both sides. Why is it 
assumed that Snape not telling Voldemort about the date change would 
reveal him as unworthy but not Snape not telling Voldemort about the 
7 Potters? How come Snape could get away with his "unnamed source" 
not telling him that but not get away with him not knowing the date? 

Carol:
 Many people were
> likely to be killed, and one of those people was likely to be Harry,
> as far as the Order knew. (They had no way of knowing that Harry's
> borrowed wand, on its own, would destroy Voldemort's borrowed one.)

Magpie:
Yeah, Harry totally would have been killed if his wand hadn't become 
a Deus Ex Machina. So he wasn't protected anyway. But the time 
they're leaving is part of the plan, even if it's not the most 
important part. 

CaroL:
> It's a dangerous business escorting Harry to safety, and only a
> diversion with a six-out-of-seven chance that LV will follow the 
wrong
> "Harry" will protect him. The original plan, to escort Harry without
> decoys, will *not* work, as Snape makes clear to the Confunded
> Mundungus and Mundungus dutifully repeats to the Order, who adopt 
the
> modified plan because if they don't, they're likely to lose not only
> their own lives but, more important, Harry's. 

Magpie:
I don't see why these two are mutually exclusive. They don't have to 
choose between escorting Harry on his birthday or using decoys. They 
could keep the date secret and also use decoys. 

Carol:
> The point is, Snape's revelation *seems* to increase the danger for
> the Order for Harry and for the Order, but it doesn't. 

Magpie:
It does increase the danger, that danger is just being described as 
unimportant while the danger of Snape not revealing the new date is 
imo exaggerated. Moody might be happy thinking they'd be pursued no 
matter what but they're using kids as decoys here who think they've 
got a little bit of a head start. I'm not saying that makes the plan 
dangerous where it wouldn't be otherwise, but revealing any part of 
the plan to the DEs is giving the DEs an advantage, however small, 
and the alleged reason for it I don't buy.

Carol:
JKR wants Snape seems to the reader to be
> betraying the Order and Harry with his revelations. DD wants him to
> seem to be Voldemort's most reliable and valuable DE. Both purposes
> are beautifully served through Snape's revelation. But Snape has an
> ace up his sleeve that makes his seemingly disastrous revelation of 
> no consequence.
 If he'd revealed the Poly-juiced Potters plan, OTOH,
> the element of surprise really would have been lost and the danger 
to
> the Order and Harry would have been greatly increased.
>

Magpie:
For me only the Doylistic purpose is served. The Watsonian 
(Dumbledore) purpose just seems to be transparently serving the 
Doylistic (JKR) purpose. To me it seems like however little 
consequence to the Order there is to Snape revealing the date, 
there's even less consequence for him and Voldemort in him revealing 
the date to the DEs. That it would have been far worse to reveal the 
Polyjuice is irrelevent. He doesn't have to reveal anything. We can't 
say how much better or worse things would have gone if he hadn't 
revealed the date. 

Carol:
They knew
> their risk, none better than Moody, and they chose to take it.

Magpie:
Except for the tiny added information that the DEs are waiting for 
them before they even begin, which in that situation is a bit more of 
a risk they might want to have been prepared for.

Carol:
> If we're going to point a finger of blame here, maybe we should 
blame
> JKR for coming up with both the original plan and DD's modification,
> which serves her plot purposes in making Snape look like a traitor 
and
> keeping him with LV long enough to be appointed headmaster; 

Magpie:
Of course JKR is doing it, but it's also in character for Dumbledore. 
Though I don't see how "keeping him with LV long enough to be 
appointed headmaster" is part of it. He didn't need anything to keep 
him with LV or to be headmaster. That was taken care of in HBP.

-m