Snape and moral courage WAS: Re: The Houses, Finally

[littleleahstill]

No: HPFGUIDX 184670

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
> Alla:
> 
> So you seem to be arguing that when Snape is getting all shocked 
> about Harry being raised as pig for slaughter in reality he knows 
> that it is a ruse and Harry in fact is not going to die? I am 
sorry, 
> but how do you arrive at the conclusion that if Dumbledore avoids 
eye 
> contact with Snape that means that Dumbledore's words have the 
> opposite meaning from what Snape hears?
> 
> I see no such indication in the text. Dumbledore can be avoiding 
eye 
> contact simply because he does not think Voldemort needs to know 
the 
> details of the plan of how to sacrifice Harry, or because he does 
not 
> want Snape to know what he ate for breakfast, meaning he is keeping 
> another secret from Snape which is totally irrelevant to that 
> discussion.
> 
> IMO of course.

Leah: No, I am certain that when Snape makes his 'pig to slaughter' 
speech he is genuinely shocked and believes that Harry must die.  
However, we all mull over what has been said to us, so I imagine 
Snape would too, especially something as important as this, and we 
also consider the context in which we learned information. Snape must 
actually do this a lot because he has to work out what memories to 
conceal or partially reveal through Occlumency. Dumbledore is keeping 
his gaze averted from Snape.  Of course he could just be having 
romantic thought about Elphias Doge <g>, but it's unlikely the 
averted eyes would warrant a mention if he wasn't meant to be 
concealing information. Snape has worked with Dumbledore long enough 
to know something about Dumbledore's modus operandi and there is 
clear 
indication in the text that later Snape does know Dumbledore is 
concealing information about the Sword of Gryffindor from him, 
because he asks Portrait!Dumbledore for more information, which he 
doesn't get.  Snape may never work out that Harry need not die, that 
is not what I am saying.  I am saying that Snape has enough partial 
information to believe/know that Dumbledore has secret plans 
concerning Harry, and that therefore if Snape does anything other 
than obey Dumbledore's orders, he might inadvertantly muck up those 
plans.

Of course it might be that Snape goes along with those plans because 
he thinks that Harry's death is necessary to defeat Voldemort,which 
is ultimate payback for Lily's death, and will save other innocent 
people.


> Alla:
> 
> Well, of course he decides to carry out Dumbledore's plan which is 
> what I was saying in my response to Potioncat. My point is that 
> deciding to carry out Dumbledore's plan is in exact contradiction 
> with protecting Harry's life as far as Snape knows and I am not 
> convinced at all that Snape knows anything else besides what 
> Dumbledore is telling him. Where do you see in the text that Snape 
> decides to carry it out only till he learns more?


Leah: The learns more bit is speculation, I admit, but there is 
evidence in the text (the Sword and Portrait) scene to show Snape is 
aware Dumbledore has secret plans, and that failure to carry out 
Dumbledore's orders may scupper those plans. It is also concievable 
that Snape thinks those plans may help Harry.

> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, of course I am treating it as part and parcel of Snape's 
> interactions with Harry as a teacher. Because **it is** part and 
> parcel of that IMO. Dumbledore does not ask somebody from outside 
to 
> protect Harry, he is asking his teacher to do so and I just do not 
> see how one can treat it separately.

Leah: No, he is asking Snape to do it, and Snape later happens to be 
Harry's teacher. Harry is only one when Dumbledore extracts the 
protection promise from Snape, and I can't see why that promise would 
not hold if Snape were not for some reason teaching at Hogwarts when 
Harry reaches 11.  Being at Hogwarts obviously makes it easier to 
protect Harry, but it doesn't mean that Snape as Harry's teacher has 
to treat Harry in any particular way. 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Lupin in many parts thanks to Snape is not at school. I disagree 
that 
> his abilities as DADA expert are in any way less than Snape's even 
> though we did not see him saving anyone in this book.

Leah: The only thing we see Lupin teaching is related to Dark 
Creatures and while he is competent at that, we are never told what 
other Dark Arts knowledge he has. On the other hand,it is 
specifically 
indicated in the text in OOTP, HBP and DH that Snape is very 
knowledgeable in DADA and is  particularly 
skilled in dealing with dark curses.  Absolutely no indication is 
given that Lupin is equally skilled.  If Dumbledore thought Lupin's 
skills fitted him for that role, then he could have given Lupin rooms 
in the castle as he later keeps Trelawney on after her sacking by 
Umbridge.  IMO, the underlying reasons why Lupin is not at the 
school, ie. his concealing of information from Dumbledore about 
Sirius' animagus status and access to the school via tunnels, and his 
failure to take the Wolfsbane potion, are clear indications of why 
Dumbledore wouldn't consider him for Snape's role. 

>> Alla:
> 
> Lupin spied at werewolves, something tells me that he would manage 
> with Voldemort too, but really, we just do not see other spies IMO.

Leah: As far as we know, werewolves do not go in for Leglimency, 
certainly we do not hear of Fenrir Greyback or any other werewolf 
being the 'greatest Leglimens' - that is Voldemort. Lupin himself 
calls Snape a 'superb Occlumens' suggesting he is better at 
Occlumency than Lupin (assuming Lupin to have any Occlumency skills 
at all).  We do specifically have Dumbledore telling Snape that there 
is no one else he would trust to 'hang on Lord Voldemort's arm'   

> Alla:
> 
> Really? Lupin was one of their closest friends and he supposedly 
does 
> not have this problem? I disagree.

Leah: Unlike Snape, Lupin did not take the prophecy to Lord 
Voldemort. Unlike Sirius,he was not involved in the Secret Keeper 
debacle.  He can be upset over James and Lily's deaths, but he has no 
reason to feel particular guilt over them.  He may have been fond of 
Lily, but as far as we know he has not been in love with her since 
the age of nine/ten.    

> 
> Alla:
> 
> It worked in this instance, so it is good enough for me. But yes, I 
> think what matters is what works on Harry and Snape IMO displays 
> through the books over and over that he has no idea what works for 
> Harry to improve his behavior. 
> 
> Dumbledore who does not even teach Harry knows that guilt works 
> perfectly well too, when he scolds Harry over not getting the 
memory 
> from Slughorn and Snape is as he always was clueless IMO.

Leah: I certainly wouldn't dispute that Snape handles Harry badly, 
though I don't like guilt tripping as a way of bringing about good 
behaviour.  In any event, as I said, even this only works temporarily 
on Harry. Lupin's words impress Harry for a while, but they certainly 
don't operate on a long term basis.

> Alla:
> 
> Except when Dumbledore hired him as Harry's bodyguard, he did not 
> fire him from the role of Harry's teacher, therefore no, I do not 
> believe it could be treated separately and if I accept your 
> requirements for the role of Harry's bodyguard, role of Harry's 
> teacher seems to me to be in huge conflict of interest.

Leah: As stated above, he wasn't Harry's teacher when hired as 
bodyguard.  I don't actually disagree that there is conflict between 
the protecting role and the teaching role, but that need not 
necessarily have been the case, for example would things have been 
different if Harry hadn't met Draco and Ron prior to the Sorting and 
had been sorted into Slytherin?  The conflict is not helped by the 
fact that Snape is teaching Harry alongside the children of Death 
Eaters and this is something Dumbledore could have prevented.  


Leah