Snape and moral courage WAS: Re: The Houses, Finally

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 184671

Leah:
<SNIP>
I am saying that Snape has enough partial
information to believe/know that Dumbledore has secret plans
concerning Harry, and that therefore if Snape does anything other
than obey Dumbledore's orders, he might inadvertently muck up those
plans.

Of course it might be that Snape goes along with those plans because
he thinks that Harry's death is necessary to defeat Voldemort,which
is ultimate payback for Lily's death, and will save other innocent
people. <SNIP>

Alla:
I  was thinking I said all I wanted to say  for this round of Snape 
thing, but I wanted to respond to couple more points, hehe.

Well, I certainly accept the possibility of Snape thinking that 
Dumbledore may have secret plans about Harry. I do not see any 
support though for possibility that Snape worked out that Harry does 
not need to die.

And of course I accept that Snape may have thought that Harry's death 
is necessary to protect Voldemort, absolutely I do.

What I am saying is that initially I responded to Potioncat's point 
that Snape kept his promise to protect Harry and sorry, but to this 
my answer is no way, no how.

You tell me Snape was thinking Harry's death will protect innocents 
and I will tell you, sure, as good consideration as any, but in what 
universe agreeing that Harry has to die means keeping his promise to 
protect him? 

Pippin:
<SNIP>
One of the key concepts of chivalry is that the moral order must
prevail over personal interests. Snape's understanding that Lily will
not have died in vain if Harry fulfills his mission and destroys
Voldemort, even though that will cost Harry his life, is a mark of
Snape's moral growth, IMO, from innate selfishness to the choice of
sacrifice. <SNIP>

Alla:

Please see above. I have no gripes with what you wrote here, but 
again in what world this is called protecting Harry? I can respect 
Snape's motivations if they were what you just described, ( I mean, I 
dislike it, etc, but hey, if that is what he thinks,  his right to 
think so) but this is certainly NOT protection in my book, this is 
sacrificing pig for slaughter and Snape ( after at least voicing 
initial disagreement to my surprise) going along with it. Reasons 
could be the most chivalrous reasons ever, my point is – it is not 
protection.


Alla earlier:
<SNIP>
> All that is needed is a genuine conviction that what one is doing is
>right? Are you arguing relative morality?

Pippin:

I can't recall a DE who believes that killing and torturing is right,
but we do have Barty Sr., who gets so carried away with his power to
punish that he forgets all about justice and mercy.

Alla:

Sorry I wanted to respond to couple points in your earlier post and 
did not do it, so doing it now.  So you are saying that DE who kill 
and torture do it why exactly? During the cup they do those things to 
Muggles fo example not because they believe in it? Sorry, but 
indication to the contrary, if I see them perform the act, I will 
assume that they fully believe in what they are doing.

But I certainly agree with you about Barty Sr.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
In comparing the Trio to Draco, Crabbe and Goyle we should consider
that we are judging the best of the apples against the worst of the
oranges.

AFAWK, the other Slytherin students are not torturing people, casting
unforgivable curses or plotting to murder anybody, and the other
Gryffindors have not been chosen by Albus Dumbledore to save the 
world.

Alla:

Yes, of course, but the rest of Gryffindors as a whole seems to be 
doing so much better at the end of the book to me.

Pippin:
The book does not actually say that all the of age Gryffindors stayed
to fight, though a careless reading could give that impression.

Alla:

But no of age Slytherins stayed to fight whatsoever and I do not see 
what reading can correct that impression. I mean, I certainly accept 
your point that they did not betray evacuation of other students to 
Voldemort, but still abandoning the fight to me looks worse than not 
abandoning it.

And of course I would love to accept the interview that they came 
back and I still think it is possible to read that crowd with 
Slughorn as if some of them were students, but it is just that 
inference, because while I believe that your other inference was 
exceptionally strong, this one even to me looks weaker, since other 
inferences IMO are equally possible, that none of them returned.

Alla:
>
> Didn't Crabbe pretty much did betray Malfoy by refusing to listen to
him? I guess it is not full blown betrayal, but I would think comes
close enough to me. As soon as Draco is finished, Crabb dear forgot
about being his friend awfully fast IMO.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
I don't know whether Crabbe ever saw Draco and Goyle as real
friends. Maybe he was always using them. At any rate, I see a
difference between Pettigrew, who lacked the courage to do what he
felt was right, and Crabbe, who was only interested in power.

Alla:

Oh LOL Crabbe was using them? Where is indication of that in the six 
books? And IMO the first assumption based on six books would be that 
Draco was using them, but based on him saving Goyle, I cannot make 
that assumption anymore.

And quite honestly I see no difference between him and Pettigrew, I 
mean they performed different actions of course, but they both turned 
their back on their friends and were willing let them die.


JMO,

Alla