Snape as Harry's protector or not WAS Snape and moral courage LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 184694

> Montvillla47: 
> Thanks for typing it up, Alla.  I'm going to cut into your quote 
> to comment on what I think is happening in the conversation.

Alla:

Sure :)

> 
> Alla (quoting the text):
> > "So the boy... the boy must die?" asked Snape, quite calmly.
> > "And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential."
> > Another long silence. Then Snape said, "I thought... all these 
> > years... that we were protecting him for her. For Lily"
> 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> The calmness Snape shows is not acceptance.  It's shock and 
> denial.  This is sort of following that Kübler-Ross model
> of people's reaction to death or loss.  She stated that there
> are five stages that people go through:  Denial, Anger,
> Bargaining, Depression, and finally, Acceptance.  

Alla:

I accept it as intepretation, but how do we know that it is what you 
say it is? I mean, you could be right, but so do I IMO.


> Montavilla47:
> And there we have the anger.  I don't care if there are 
> capslocks or not.  I don't care if we don't see spittle flying
> from Snape's foaming mouth.  He's angry and he's shouting.

Alla:

Absolutely. Snape moves to anger when and only when Dumbledore 
suggests that he cares for the boy and Snape IMO is angry that 
Dumbledore could ever think that. I just do not see how you connect 
his anger with the Dumbledore's decision that Snape has to die.

Montavilla47:
> We don't see him go through the other steps.  And Kübler-Ross
> notes that no everyone does, so maybe he didn't go through 
> them.  Maybe he did and JKR didn't bother to show it. 

Alla:

Or maybe JKR was not thinking about it at all.
 
Montavilla47: 
> What I don't see is Snape in this scene ever actually coming
> to acceptance.  Obviously he eventually did.  But I don't see it
> in this scene.

Alla:

You mean we do not see him saying yes I will do it in that scene? 
True, we don't, but we do not see him saying no I will not do it 
either and coupled with the fact that he in fact followed 
Dumbledore's plan, to me proof is in the pudding that he accepted and 
followed it.


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
>> Is Snape, knowing that Harry is going to have to sacrifice
> himself, just trying to get in as many licks as possible?  Is
> he angry at what he knows he's going to have to do next
> year and projecting this at Harry?  Is it genuine concern
> for Harry's soul?  Is he worried about that soul-bit of 
> Voldemort doing something bad if he has his Saturday's free?

Alla:

I vote One :)

Montavilla47: 
> Or is it just that he feels, having once been nearly killed
> by classmates, that near murder warrants severe 
> punishment?

Alla:

I LOVE the book "Count Monte Cristo". I have no problem with Edmon 
Dantes who suffered in hell for fourteen years being betrayed by his 
closest friends thinking that sins of the fathers should fall on 
their children. I mean, I disagree with that, but I completely excuse 
him and of course I have no problem with him executing revenge upon 
said "friends". But even Edmond Dantes eventually saves those 
children instead of punishing them, for the most part anyways.

But if Snape thinks that because he was played a prank in school 
which yes, could have gotten him killed, but where no force in making 
him to go in the tunnel was involved, if he thinks that the child of 
the man who saved him needs to die for it, then I hope that he burns 
in whatever version of Potterverse imaginary hell for all eternity.

As I stated many time, I have no problem with Snape holding grudge 
against Marauders, I think it is childish, but whatever, he has that 
right in my view.

But to make a long story short, I hope this was not Snape's 
motivation.


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
> Another thing I'd note is that, among Snape supporters 
> anyway, there's a general consensus that Snape is protecting
> Harry in "The Flight of the Prince."  So, although this is after
> Dumbledore told Snape about Harry needing to die, Snape
> is trying to prevent Harry from harm (until he gets angry at
> Harry's taunting).   Which makes it fun in retrospect because
> he still can't stand the kid.


Alla:

Hmm, sure I can see how he was protecting Harry from harm. He was 
protecting Harry to make sure Dumbledore's plan is going to go 
forward and Harry will die when Dumbledore thinks it is time, no 
earlier than that. Which to me in retrospect is fun indeed, but for 
different reason than for you. Scene supposedly suggests that Snape 
protects the boy for Voldemort to deal as he see fit, while in 
reality IMO Snape protects him for Dumbledore to deal as he see fits. 
It is ironic if you ask me.

JMO,

Alla