Snape as Harry's protector or not WAS Snape and moral courage LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 184697

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
But accepting it doesn't mean that Snape didn't care. Which is what
you are arguing. <SNIP>

Alla:

No, not quite. I am arguing that he did not care nearly enough to not 
accept it. I do not think it is the exact same thing.

Montavilla47:
Hmm. I was going to say, "Just because don't see Snape crying...."

But we do see that, don't we? We see Snape with tears running
off the edge of his nose while he stares at Lily's picture. I don't
blame anyone for forgetting that moment, because I tend to
blank it out, but it shows him expressing deep grief. Is he so
heartbroken because he's suddenly reminded about the girl he
loved? Is he heartbroken because she wrote "love, Lily" to
Sirius and not to him? Is he heartbroken because he's now
committed to a plan that means he's betraying his goal of
protecting her son?

Again, this is evidence that he cares. It's certainly not proof, but
I don't think it's possible for us to get clear proof.

Alla:

That is an interesting inference, and I certainly cannot disprove it. 
But believe me I definitely did not forget this moment, although the 
creepiness of it makes me shudder every time I remember it.

I suppose I am just absolutely convinced that he cried over Lily's 
death and nothing else and that he still cannot let go. I think the 
fact that he tears apart the letter makes me so convinced, that he 
just needs to have the piece of handwriting of his beloved in his 
hand and maybe pretend that it was addressed to him?

But again, I totally accept your inference, disagree, but accept that 
it is a valid one.

Alla:

> But if Snape thinks that because he was played a prank in school
> which yes, could have gotten him killed, but where no force in 
making
> him to go in the tunnel was involved, if he thinks that the child of
> the man who saved him needs to die for it, then I hope that he burns
> in whatever version of Potterverse imaginary hell for all eternity.

Montavilla47:
I think you misunderstood me. The "severe punishment" that I meant
was "lots of detentions in which Harry gets to read about James being
a jerk" and not "death."

Alla:

It is funny because when I reread my initial answer, I thought that I 
indeed may have misunderstood you, but not in the way you just 
explained at all. I was rushing out the door and did not have time to 
ask for clarification in any event.

So what I thought you may have meant after I already posted my 
response is that Snape thought that Harry almost getting Draco killed 
deserves a severe punishment, which to me would have been a perfectly 
**for once** fair and legit response from Snape.

Now, to be absolutely clear, I absolutely do not agree that it was 
near murder, I think it was legit self defense, BUT since Snape was 
not there, I do not blame him had he arrived to that conclusion – 
bleeding Draco and Harry over him.

So, in any event yes indeed I did misunderstand you, sorry about 
that, however, no matter what kind of punishment you meant Snape may 
have thought Harry deserves **for something that happened when Harry 
was not even born yet** and Harry himself did not do, my response 
will be the same – I do not believe that Harry deserves any kind of 
punishment for that and I hope Snape burns for all eternity in the 
imaginary hell if he thought that.


Pippin:
Haven't you and Montavilla just concluded that nowhere does Snape
agree to it?

Alla:

Not quite no, I believe that I agreed with Montavilla that nowhere in 
that scene Snape says yes to it. However, I also said that nowhere in 
that scene he says no to it and since he eventually carries out the 
plan, I believe that it proves that yes indeed he agrees to do it.

Pippin:
What Snape is ordered to do is tell Harry, when the time comes, that
Voldemort cannot die until the soul bit within Harry has been
destroyed, and that Harry must die at Voldemort's hands to accomplish
this. That's all.

Alla:

You are right, that's all. But to me it is quite enough.

Pippin:
Snape is not ordered to make sure that Harry agrees.

Alla:

Thank goodness, because if he ordered to do so, I would think of 
Dumbledore as a monster. I already think that he is manipulative 
uncaring bastard, but I do not think that he is a monster *yet*

Pippin:
Snape is never told to stop protecting Harry.

Alla:
However, what he *is* ordered to do as you described above to me goes 
in opposite direction from protecting Harry.


Pippin:
He is not ordered to *let* Voldemort kill Harry. 

Alla:

Thank goodness, see above.

Pippin:
As Dumbledore
reminds him, it is often beyond Snape's power to save
the lives of people he is helping Dumbledore protect, including
Dumbledore himself. This time is not likely to be different.

Alla:
And Dumbledore also says that he knows Harry. To me Dumbledore knows 
perfectly well that giving Harry this information will be enough for 
Harry to decide to carry it out.

But again, let me be clear. I do **not** hold Snape responsible for 
Harry's decision to sacrifice himself. I fully believe it was Harry's 
decision, I see him thinking about the plan and deciding that it was 
a good one.  But neither I see Snape behaving as man protecting Harry 
in giving this information to him.

Without Snape giving him this information Harry would not have 
decided to do that. And again, I do not care if it was a good 
decision for the mankind and in essence for Harry's survival, of 
course it was , but we only know about it after the fact IMO and 
Snape had no way of knowing.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
Wouldn't Snape guess that something unexpected might happen if
Voldemort tried to kill Harry again, especially with Dumbledore
dropping broad hints by keeping his eyes tight shut?

 
Alla:

What hints Pippin? Snape sees that Dumbledore does not want him to 
know something, again. He already complained about it to Dumbledore 
before, how does he suppose to know that Dumbledore keeping his eyes 
shut means that Dumbledore has a secret plan which is likely to keep 
Harry alive?

I mean, to me the most Snape can guess by looking and see Dumbledore 
closed eyes, that Dumbledore is keeping a secret from him, which is 
nothing new to him IMO.

Pippin:
Dumbledore is hardly such a slouch at occlumency that he can't do it
with his eyes open.

Alla:
Dumbledore cannot do what with his eyes open? You are saying that he 
can block unwanted information from giving it out even with his eyes 
open?

He probably can, but what does it matter? Why risk it?

JMO,
Alla