Dumbledore versus General Iroh SPOILERS for Avatar the Last airbender LONG

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 184721

> Alla:

> And it seems that Iroh wanted  Zuco to choose certain destiny, 
> however he only says it out loud when Zuco **already** chose that 
> destiny and when he was not choosing it, Iroh supported him as well, 
> all the way.  I have not noticed Dumbledore hoping that Harry will 
> find his own destiny, I noticed Dumbledore pushing Harry as a weapon, 
> as chess piece to do what Dumbledore wanted him to, IMO.
> 
> Iroh rocks, he really does in my opinion.

Magpie:
Iroh rocks hardcore.:-)

I would also note--I wrote about this elsewhere in more detail I think 
once--that the closest Iroh comes to making a mistake in thinking he 
knows what's best he's wrong. 

SPOILERS FOR AVATAR BELOW!

I mean in Ba Sing Se when Zuko seems like he's going to make the right 
choice and instead makes a spectacularly wrong choice--in that scene 
Iroh is coaching him to choose differently. He comes pretty close to 
saying, "I'm the mentor here and I am wise and know you better than you 
know yourself, so listen to my advice here and choose right." 

It seems like all is lost since Zuko doesn't listen. But really Iroh 
was wrong. Not in what choice Zuko should make, but in thinking that he 
was ready. He was just not dealing with the things most important to 
Zuko there. In order to choose the right path Zuko had to work out what 
this was all about for him, which was his father. Iroh had always 
avoided that issue because there was a lot of personal stuff in there. 
Iroh was essentially acting as a surrogate father but he never wanted 
to put himself forward as that (though he would admit that Zuko became 
more important to him after his own son died). But he also could never 
tell Zuko that his dreams of winning his father's love were hopeless. 
So when Iroh's cheering for him to make the right choice by choosing 
good because that's what he really is (and he's right) Zuko still 
listens to his sister telling him if he chooses bad he can go home and 
have his family back.

So my point is just that unlike with HP where despite some nods to 
Dumbledore's fallibility everybody listens to him and his plans even 
after he's dead, Zuko's decisions in the end are all based on his own 
experiences, especially his experiences after not following the plan 
Iroh imagined in his head. (And of course Iroh is not manipulative the 
way Dumbledore is.) Which makes for a stronger choice on Zuko's part. 
Had he just "listened to Iroh" in Ba Sing Se his turn to the other side 
probably would have been less stable because part of him would still be 
longing for his fantasy of winning his father's love. 

Not that Zuko doesn't totally credit Iroh as his mentor. He just 
doesn't completely follow him all the time. When they reunite and Iroh 
says, "I was never angry with you. I was sad because I thought you had 
lost your way." (And I cry.) And Zuko says, "I did lose my way." He 
needed to lose it, though, to learn the truth about his wrong-thinking. 
Iroh couldn't do that for him; he couldn't just trust in him. 

I would also say that in the end Zuko is a teenager on his way to 
become someone on the level of Iroh--Iroh himself was a lot like Zuko 
at his age, apparently. He still needs to get there, though. Where as 
Harry follows Dumbledore's plans but is also understood to be a far 
better person. He avoids Dumbledore's mistakes but never feels to me 
like he stops being the student. It's hard to explain, but it is very 
different from Zuko and Iroh. Zuko winds up still not at Iroh's level, 
but only because of his youth. Iroh is wise not because he knows stuff 
that he's not telling Zuko but because he's made mistakes, learned from 
them, suffered and been brave enough to make them better.

Also, another aspect of this I always love, is the way that like 
Dumbleodre, Iroh sometimes sounds like a fool.:-) His advice often 
comes out as sounding totally unintelligible to Zuko. But without 
realizing it once Zuko starts to gain knowledge he starts doing the 
same thing in his own way. When Zuko is speaking from experience he's 
able to give wise advice too on things like "What honor is." 

-m