Dumbledore versus General Iroh SPOILERS for Avatar the Last airbender LONG

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 184727

> Magpie:
> Well, he isn't any more of a wish fulfillment figure than Dumbledore
> however he sounds (not sure how he sounds so much more wish-
> fulfilling). He's just a mentor who doesn't operate like Dumbledore
> within the story or as a character. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
 
> But in any event there is a reason why I jumped on wish fulfillment 
> part of Pippin's argument, because there is certainly something in 
> Avatar which to me sound like idealistic wish fulfillment and this 
is 
> of course the ending of it. However, the road to that ending is so 
> painful, so so hard so filled with pain of losses, etc, that I 
think 
> I will forgive that ending. Before you tell me that ending in HP is 
> also happy, well, I totally agree that it is happy for the 
> characters, I however disagree that the ending for the society is 
all 
> warm and fuzzy. I mean, we debated all that in the past of course, 
> but I am of the firm opinion that all the things that are left 
> hanging, well to me it is more realistic to left them hanging and 
> hope that change will come then to resolve all that and be going to 
> the era of love and peace. 

Magpie:
I guess for me it seems like Avatar ends at basically where HP would 
be pre-epilogue. They beat the bad guy which means there's a new Fire 
Lord. We don't know what's going to happen now that the bad guy's 
been defeated at the end of the show. There's the crowning of a new 
Fire Lord who makes a speech to a limited group of people, Iroh opens 
his shop. But if the show had gone into a fourth season (which half 
the team was pushing for) they would have dealt with problems that 
faced everyone still. A character saying they want to usher in an era 
of love and peace doesn't mean love and peace is going to happen 
then. It means they're going to try to start a very long road to 
something better. As you say, they might be hoping there's an era of 
love and peace, but we don't know what happens next. If the show had 
gone on we would definitely not have seen a love and peace era, we'd 
see a lot of problems. But the general idea is: All was well. The 
Avatar universe was actually far more messed up than the HP-verse at 
that point. The problems were so big it was almost like...where do we 
start?

Alla:
> Again, I am being very honest I only thought about it just now, 
> therefore I may not be very clear in what I am trying to say, feel 
> free to ask questions.  To me Zuco is basically Draco Malfoy of 
> Avatar world, not in a sense that their circumstances are exactly 
the 
> same, because of course they are not, but in a sense that Malfoy is 
> on the wrong side of the fight and expected to choose differently 
and 
> Zuco is on the wrong side initially and expected to choose 
> differently. As some of  you may know, I cannot stand Malfoy, never 
> did, but I absolutely adore Zuco. I find his character arc to be 
the 
> most honest, realistically handle and well, just beautiful. So my 
> point is that since show creators had in mind for Zuco eventually 
to 
> choose correctly, I am just wondering if they decided that mentor 
> like Dumbledore may have prevented Zuco from choosing correctly 
> instead of helping, you know?

Magpie:
ITA with this basic way of looking at it. Iroh is in some ways 
positioned like Dumbledore and Snape in one just in terms of the fact 
that Iroh and Zuko both start out on the DE side, oppressing others. 
By the time the show starts Iroh has had a change of heart but hasn't 
actively switched sides, exactly. He's a sleeper, a bit like Snape.

It's different than Dumbledore's flirtation with the bad side in his 
youth. Iroh and Zuko have more in common imo. Iroh understands the 
pride in the Fire Nation, he's just offering a better way to bring it 
honor. The distance between Dumbledore and Draco is a lot greater. I 
don't think Dumbledore has the confidence in Draco that Iroh does in 
Zuko. Dumbledore's confident that Draco isn't a killer, but that's 
not saying much. At best Draco is a victim he can spare from 
something. He's not really invested in Draco's development as a man.

Of course, Zuko and Aang are sort of dual protagonists. Zuko is 
choosing to help the Avatar but is also really important with his own 
story arc. Still, it's definitely not about destiny (even though Zuko 
talks about destiny a lot!) for Zuko. He is more of what Draco 
potentially could have been in that he's born into the ruling family 
on the bad side, learns what's wrong with that side and takes over 
the family to steer it in a different direction. Dumbledore isn't 
about that--certainly not the way Iroh, another member of the family, 
is.


Alla:
> Come to think of it, does Aang really has a mentor? Does Roko count 
> as such? If he does, well, in a way it is really mentoring himself 
> lol, well I do not think that Roko is manipulative, but to me he is 
> not so patient as Iroh, like at all.

Magpie:
I don't really think he had a mentor. He had the monk when he was 
growing up but Aang is more about friends on his same level. He also 
had that guru but his advice was wrong anyway. He's 112!

-m