HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2.

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184344

Carol earlier:
> > I'm not talking about helping the mothers of the world. I'm
talking about desperate fear for the life of someone you love. He's
not identifying with Lily or mothers. He's identifying with Narcissa,
whose fear for Draco exactly parallels his own for Lily.
> 
> Sarah:
> OK, but that's not actually in the book.  In the book, he stared
into her eyes for a second then immediately agreed to take the
Unbreakable Vow.  <snip>  We can speculate as to why this may have
occurred the way that it did, but there is no one right answer at this
time, since it isn't in the book.

Carol:
I agree that his empathy with Narcissa isn't in the book, but his
being in a parallel situation, knowing how it feels when someone you
love is in desperate danger from Voldemort is (in DH, not "Spinner's
End," I admit). What's in in the actual chapter is that he looks into
her tear-filled eyes and that her whole reason for coming to him is
her concern for Draco. What's also in the book (HBP, actually) is that
Snape sees what's uppermost in the mind of the person whose eyes he's
looking into. In Harry's case, it's the HBP's Potions book. I don't
think it's speculating all that much to suspect that what Snape saw in
Narcissa's eyes was Draco's death, which is certainly uppermost in her
mind. LV, we discover in DH, actually enters a person's mind, almost
as if he's possessing them, and walks around in the person's thoughts
as if they were a Pensieve. (See his Legilimency on Gregorovitch in
DH.) Snape's much less invasive Legilimency doesn't work that way, as
the Sectumsempra chapter demonstrates. Certainly, you're free to think
that he didn't know what Draco's mission was until he looked into her
eyes. Unfortunately, that's contrary to canon. He tells her that he
knows what it is, and he also tells dumbledore, who could not have
found it out without his one and only DE spy, Snape. Maybe we should
agree to disagree on this point.

 
> Sarah:
> Yeah, so basically there's a lot of fanfare about something that
isn't really a big deal.  Snape is promising to do something that he
already promised to do, that he has promised for a reason that's
meaningful to *him.*

Carol: I disagree completely. There's a lot of fanfare because an
Unbreakable Vow is exactly that, a binding magical contract that can
result in death. I think it *is* a big deal because it robs Snape of
the opportunity to back out. He has to keep his promise or die.
Certainly, he already intended to do all those things, but he could
fail or he could change his mind with no dire consequences for
himself. Now it's his death or Dumbledore's with no way out unless DD
dies from the ring curse before Draco can get near him. And if any
harm comes to Draco because Snape failed to watch over and protect him
"to the best of his ability," Snape is dead, too.

People make and break vows all the time. Just look at wedding vows.
There's all the difference in the world between "till death do us
part" when it's just a line in a ceremony that can be dishonored by a
divorce or an affair and instant death if the wedding vow is broken.
And, as I said before, there's ample evidence, including Snape's
facial expression when he kills DD and "Don't call me coward!"
(meaning "You don't know how much this has cost me or what danger I'm
still in because of you!") that Snape didn't want this burden. ("What
about my soul, Dumbledore?" "You take too much for granted,
Dumbledore. Maybe I don't want to do it any more!" That's canon.)

Sarah: 
> Now he's being asked to do the exact same thing, for a reason that
is meaningful to other people, and may provide side benefits to Snape.
Of course he takes it. 

Carol:
Side benefits like convincing Bella that he's loyal to Bellatrix and
keeping Narcissa from doing somehting desperate, do you mean? I agree
that those are considerations, but they hardly outweight the certainty
of death if he fails. I suppose that this is another point on which we
disagree. Notice his hesitation and blank expression before he agrees
to the Unbreakable Vow. I think he waits to know what she's asking.
(He's probably thinking something like, "Watch over and protect Draco?
Sure, I'll swear to do that.") Then she throws doing "the deed" if
Draco seems about to fail into the mix. He hesitates. His hand
twitches. But he agrees. (What choice does he have, on his knees and
bound to Narcissa with ropes of fire, with Bellatrix standing over him
with a wand? Yes, there are the side benefits. Yes, he's already
promised DD to do it, and LV probably expects him to do it as well.
Nevertheless, he really doesn't want to do it. Killing Dumbledore will
drive him from his job, not to mention his position as double agent
and trusted member of the Order. It will send him right into
Voldemort's arms, forcing him to look like a villain and a traitor. It
may well split his soul. And now, with the Unbreakable Vow, the only
way out of that vow, if Draco and DD come face to face, is his own death.

Sarah:
 My only question was why he pretended not to know what they were
asking him at first, if in fact that was the case.

Carol:
I'm not sure what you mean here. Narcissa didn't come to him hoping to
make an Unbreakable Vow. That requires a third person, and Bellatrix
followed Narcissa without invitation. If you mean asking what he can
do for them, that's only polite. And certainly, he wants to answer
Bellatrix's objections before talking to Narcissa. He also has to be
careful at first because Wormtail is in the room. Moreover, they've
all been told not to talk about Draco's assignment with anyone, so of
course he wants them to speak first. He's a spy (double agent). One
false move, especially in front of Bellatrix, can cost his life.
Telling Narcissa that she shouldn't speak of it if LV has told her not
to is also self-protection. It makes him appear to be loyal (and fits
with the answers he's just given Bellatrix). He wants Narcissa to go
first, but quite possibly he's not ready to help her openly (though of
course he already intends to watch over and protect Draco). He turns
to the window, possibly to give himself time to think, and then
informs them that he knows of the plan. The reader doesn't know at
that point whether he's bluffing; we find out later that he isn't. And
then he asks her what help she requires, making it quite clear that
he's not stupid enough to try to talk the Dark Lord out of it. He
looks away several times. He reminds her sternly that the Dark Lord is
displeased with Lucius, which confirms Narcissa's fears that LV is
taking revenge on Lucius through Draco. He says quietly that he might
be able to help Draco; he does not say how. Narcissa suggests the
Unbreakable Vow, expressing it in terms that Snape can hardly refuse
(protecting Draco and seeing that he comes to no harm). Still, he
hesitates and his expression is unreadable. The Unbreakable Vow is a
dangerous thing, quite possibly Dark Magic, and if he breaks it, he
will die. It's not a risk to be taken lightly. IMO, it's a calculated
risk. Maybe all she will ask is that he protect Draco, as he already
intends to do. Maybe, if she asks him to take on the task himself, the
moment of truth will never come. Maybe the confrontation can be put
off indefinitely until DD dies from the ring curse. And if it does
come down to killing DD or dying from the broken vow, at least he'll
be doing what Dumbledore wants and helping to bring about the fall of
LV. But that he still doesn't want to do it is evident from the hand,
which doesn't twitch on the first to provisions, only on the last,
doing that hateful deed to save Draco's soul and give DD the death he
requested, in part so that Snape can become LV's most trusted man.
it's a horrible future that DD has outlined for him, but he has
promised to do "anything" that DD asks of him, and he wants LV
destroyed as much as Dumbledore does though for different reasons. At
any rate, I disagree that it was an easy choice or that it made no
difference. Again, maybe we should agree to disagree as we're
evidently not going to convince each other.

Sarah: 
> He won't change his mind about killing Dumbledore.  So, the net
effect here is about the same as if I said, "I promise not to forget
to breathe tomorrow, on penalty of my death."  In other words, no effect.

Carol:
Won't he? ("You take a great deal for granted, Dumbledore! Perhaps I
have changed my mind!" He looks "mutinous" as he speaks these words.
(DH Am. ed. 685). He knows that he's taken that vow, but he's clearly
considering death rather than carrying it out. No effect? Just death
(and thwarting DD's plans). No big deal. Sorry. I don't think so.

Carol earlier:
<snip> Snape could have died fighting the DEs, refusing to kill DD,
and letting one of them kill him. He would have died a hero, but he
would also have failed Harry, Draco, and Dumbledore. Or he could have
done nothing, as he seemed in danger or doing. It took him a long time
to raise his wand. DD had to beg him twice, and desperately.
> 
> Sarah:
> Totally disagree with all of this, sorry. 

Carol:
You don't think that he would have died a hero, even in Harry's eyes,
if he'd chosen to fight the DEs rather than kill Dumbledore? That's
pretty much what DDM!Snapers expected him to do. It looks as if we
totally disagree on every point. Sorry. :-)

Sarah:
> What I was referring to earlier was one of the good guys (Harry
Potter for example) taking Snape out on his way out of the castle. 
Which clearly couldn't have happened, since Harry failed so miserably
against Snape when he chased him out and they duelled.

Carol:
At last, a point we agree on. Snape's parrying Harry's curses, even
Crucio, so easily is one of my favorite moments in the book. (And I'm
quite sure he could have killed McGonagall and Flitwick together in DH
if he'd wanted to. But I don't see how any of this relates to the
Unbreakable Vow.

Sarah:
> Yeah, Snape could have not killed Dumbledore, and waited to be
killed by the Vow or his DE contemporaries, but he was never ever
going to attempt that, anyway.

Carol:
You don't know that. I've already given evidence that he didn't want
to do it. There's also the initial conversation in "The Prince's
Tale." The only arguments that persuade him are saving Draco's soul
and preventing DD from being tortured by someone like Bellatrix or
torn apart by Fenrir Greyback. But at that point, he can still get out
of it, particularly if DD is in no imminent danger of death by
anything other than an AK. Letting another DE AK DD would serve both
those purposes. The only thing it wouldn't do (besides robbing the
Elder Wand of its power, which Snape doesn't know about) is prevent
Snape from taking his place as LV's most trusted DE, which will enable
Snape to protect the students and help Harry.

Sarah: 
> Completely disagree that it took him a long time on the tower.  He
arrived, ascertained what was going on, was interrupted by Dumbledore,
stepped to him, heard two more words from Dumbledore, and immediately
blew him away and split.  I see no hesitation.

Carol:
Perhaps it will help to reread the scene. Snape arrives and surveys
the scene as you say. (I suspect that he noted the two brooms and knew
that Harry was there in his Invisibility Cloak, though the narrator
doesn't mention that.) Amycus informs him that they have a problem. DD
softly speaks Snape's first name. Harry notes a pleading note in his
voice. But note what happens next. Snape does not immediately raise
his wand and blow DD away. Instead,

"Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out
of the way. the three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the
werewolf seemed cowed.

"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and
hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

"'Severus. . .please. . . .'

"Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. 'Avada
Kedavra!'

Note that Snape does not come in with his wand raised (contrast his
rushing out of his office during the Occlumency lesson in OoP when he
hears Trelawney scream). Nor does he raise it immediately after he has
ascertained the situation and pushed Draco out of the way. DD pleads
with him. He does not raise his wand. Instead, he looks into DD's eyes
and an expression of (self?) hatred and revulsion passes over his
face, reminding many readers of the self-hatred and revulsion
(repulsion) that Harry felt in the cave when he was force-feeding DD
that horrible potion. Even then, DD has to beg him again, "Severus,
please!" before he raises his wand and does "the deed." DD's
desperation can only be accounted for by his belief that Snape may
back out, may allow himself to die from the vow rather than do the
detested deed that will cost him everything--job, Order membership,
the trust of his former colleagues--and turn him into a seemingly
loyal DE. There is no turning back.

Once he's done the deed, I agree that he's in a hurry to get Draco and
the DEs off the tower and out of Hogwarts. He also, IMO, wants to get
the DEs away from Harry, who will certainly try to fight them and be
killed. And also, IMO, he deliberately sent DD's body over the
ramparts so that Fenrir Greyback couldn't ravage it. (DD had expressed
particular aversion to being attacked by Greyback; Snape protects his
body from Greyback and at the same time leaves no reason for the DEs
to remain on the tower. He's still pledged to protect Draco and he's
promised DD to protect the students. That duty starts now. Of course,
he has to "split" at that point. It's the only way to get the DEs out
of Hogwarts, telling them that they've done what they came to do.
Later, he stops a DE (Amycus?) from Crucioing Harry, saying that he's
for the Dark Lord and they need to get out before the Aurors come. And
he makes sure that Draco gets safely out before he deals with Harry,
trying to the last to teach him what he needs to know and at the same
time maintain his cover. And again we see a tormented expression on
his face as Harry says, "Kill me like you killed him!" In context, it
seems to refer to James, but it makes more sense if it refers to
Dumbledore. Against his will, he has killed his own mentor, and the
torment on his face reflects his own private hell. (It can't reflect
physical pain; he's unhurt.)

> 
> Carol:
> > I disagree. He tells DD, *after* he has made the vow, that DD
takes too much for granted and that maybe he doesn't want to do it any
more.
> 
> Sarah:
> I disagree again. 

Carol:
Sigh. We're playing ping pong here. I don't see how you can disagree
with a fictional fact, in any case. Here's the timing. Snape makes the
Unbreakable Vow in "Spinner's End" in mid-July. He tells DD that he
(DD) takes too much for granted at the end of the following February,
a night or two before Ron's birthday, March 1. You  can't disagree
with a fact.

Sarah:
> Snape is in the process of complaining that Dumbledore doesn't give
him enough information during that scene.  He is bargaining.  Of
course he pulls out "Well I could just not kill you then" or anything
else he can think of at that point.  He is a subordinate bargaining
with a superior, he is just threatening whatever he can think of.

Carol:
That's your interpretation. It's not mine. I think his initial
hesitation, the hand twitch, the mutinous "maybe I've changed my
mind," the look of hatred and revulsion on his face as he looks into
DD's eyes on the tower (if he's using Legilimency on Narcissa in
"Spinner's End" surely he's using it on his fellow Legilimens, DD, who
is begging him to get on with it and is probably willing him to see
what's on his mind, as Harry did in OoP); the agony on his face as
Harry calls him a coward; all that adds up to unwillingness to do the
deed. Can you show me counterevidence that he's glad to do it?
> 
> Carol:
> > And his hesitation on the tower, along with his expression of
seeming hatred (probably extreme anger at DD and self-loathing or
revulsion at what he has to do)
> 
> Sarah:
> We've already been over this, but I don't believe there was any
hesitation.  Of course he was angry about it, who wouldn't be.

Carol:
I've just shown you that he did hesitate. He looks around, pushes
Draco out of the way, does not raise his wand. DD speaks his name. He
looks into DD's eyes, his expression changes to one of hatred and
revulsion. Still, he does not raise his wand. DD begs him again,
"Severus, please!" And, finally, in the nick of time if DD's
desperation is any indication, he does the deed.

Incidentally, how do you account for his expression if it's not
revulsion at the deed he has to perform and either self-hatred like
Harry's in the cave or fierce anger at DD for placing him in this
position? And you say "of course he's angry about it," but you also
imply that it's no big deal; he'd have done it anyway. That seems
contradictory to me.
 
> > Carol:
> > I think you're missing the point, which is that Snape only
reluctantly agreed to kill Dumbledore and still, even after the vow,
doesn't want to do it. 
> 
> Sarah:
> Well, I suppose we are even since I think it is you who are missing
the point.  Which is that Snape agrees to things that are convenient
for Snape. 

Carol:
Placing himself in the position of kill or be killed is convenient for
Snape? And possibly you're forgetting, "I've lied for you, spied for
you, risked my life for you." Convenient for Snape? I don't think so.
Convenient for Dumbledore, certainly.

Sarah:
 Which is why he agreed to the UV, because it was something he already
planned on doing anyway.  He was reluctant when he agreed to kill
Dumbledore, *at first.*  Then, like everything else in his life, he
accepted it as a given, since it was ordered by Dumbledore.

Carol:
Which is not exactly the same as his own convenience or wanting to do it.

Sarah: 
> He was seen later trying to get out of it, but a) I don't think
Snape is really that stupid that he actually believes that would be
feasible and b) as I said earlier, Snape is attempting to leverage
Dumbledore into something entirely unrelated, so he's just waving that
around.

Carol:
That's your opinion, but I don't see any support for it. I agree that
Snape isn't stupid, far from it, but even with the UV there is a way
out of killing Dumbledore, keeping Draco from getting near DD, which
Snape knows he won't do without backup, until the curse kills DD.
(Snape, as I said before, does not know that Draco has succeeded in
bringing DEs into Hogwarts; the moment he had, IMO, hoped to avoid
comes on him without warning.) Even the Elder Wand problem, which
Snape doesn't know about, would have been solved that way, with the
wand having no master and losing its power. The only thing that
wouldn't happen would be Snape's gaining LV's trust (or what passes
for trust) by killing DD. And if all else fails, Snape could let the
UV kill him, which he seems on the verge of doing, or at least in
danger of doing, when the time comes to carry out the vow.
<snip
> 
> Sarah:
> Do you really believe that Snape could undermine Dumbledore's orders
and "come out looking like a hero?"  I do not.  Perhaps that
contributes to the difference of opinion concerning this matter.

Carol:
Wouldn't he look like a hero if he protected Dumbledore from the other
DEs and died fighting them, just as Sirius Black died protecting
Harry? Harry would think so, if he lived to tell the tale. No one
except Snape and DD knows about Dumbledore's plans, including Harry.
So instead of fighting the DEs (or just letting the vow kill him,
which would save him from being a murderer but accomplish nothing
since it wouldn't save DD and would leave Harry, Draco, and Hogwarts
unprotected), he looks like a villain--as the result of *obeying* DD's
orders.

You know, I think we just disagree so profoundly about the dangers of
the UV and about Snape's motives that there's no point continuing the
discussion--unless you want to present evidence to counter mine. I
don't see any evidence to support your point of view, though I may
have missed it.

Carol, with apologies to fellow posters for the ping pong match