HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2.

[tommy_m_riddle]

No: HPFGUIDX 184348

(Apologies for any circularity/redundancy, I tried to snip a bunch for
that reason but it may not be perfect.)

> Carol:
> Snape sees what's uppermost in the mind of the person whose eyes he's
> looking into. In Harry's case, it's the HBP's Potions book.

Sarah:
It is true that it worked like that on that occasion.  Other times, he
just saw random things like getting chased by dogs and making out with
Cho.

Sarah:
> Certainly, you're free to think
> that he didn't know what Draco's mission was until he looked into her
> eyes. Unfortunately, that's contrary to canon.

Sarah:
Agreed.  It has been my position ever since I first posted in this
topic, and still is, that prior to the publication of DH I believed
that Snape found out Draco's mission at that moment.  I no longer
believe this, thanks to DH.  All I'm saying is that it seemed to be
getting set up that way, and would make more sense to me if it had
been.  Which it wasn't.  I thought X, but X was clearly jossed, so
instead it is Y, which in my opinion makes less sense than X, but it
is what it is.

Carol:
> He tells her that he
> knows what it is, and he also tells dumbledore, who could not have
> found it out without his one and only DE spy, Snape. Maybe we should
> agree to disagree on this point.

Sarah:
No, we agree perfectly fine.  DH was published, and in it, Snape
talked to Dumbledore about what Draco's mission was before the Black
sisters came to his house.  We could have agreed to disagree plenty
back before DH came out, but in this case I think we must agree to
agree.  Before DH, Snape did tell the Black sisters he knew what the
mission was, but I think everything he says in that chapter (or
basically, ever) must be questioned, which I did up until I saw that
he talked to Dumbledore about it first.
 
> Carol: I disagree completely. There's a lot of fanfare because an
> Unbreakable Vow is exactly that, a binding magical contract that can
> result in death. 

Sarah:
Yeah, but so are sporting tournaments for the seventeen year old set,
and apparently, prosthetic limbs.  Or maybe the life debt, but that is
a different discussion.

Carol:
> I think it *is* a big deal because it robs Snape of
> the opportunity to back out. He has to keep his promise or die.
> Certainly, he already intended to do all those things, but he could
> fail or he could change his mind with no dire consequences for
> himself. Now it's his death or Dumbledore's with no way out unless DD
> dies from the ring curse before Draco can get near him.

Sarah:
I guess the difference of opinion here stems from two sources.  First,
I don't believe Snape could back out or fail without dire consequence
for himself even absent the Vow.  Second, it comes down to how
resigned Snape already is to doing this.  I think he is totally
committed, and any threats to the contrary are idle manipulation
attempts.  Such as:

> ("What
> about my soul, Dumbledore?" "You take too much for granted,
> Dumbledore. Maybe I don't want to do it any more!" That's canon.)

Sarah:
After the first quote, Dumbledore strongly implies that there will be
no wizarding moral implications, since Snape is basically going to
euthanize him.  I've already addressed what I think about the second
quote.  Snape also tells the Black sisters that he's pretty sure
Voldemort wants him to do it anyway, and he even cracks a joke to
Dumbledore about whether he'd like to die now, or have a moment to
compose his epitaph.  That's canon.

> Carol:
> You don't think that he would have died a hero, even in Harry's eyes,
> if he'd chosen to fight the DEs rather than kill Dumbledore? That's
> pretty much what DDM!Snapers expected him to do. It looks as if we
> totally disagree on every point. Sorry. :-)

Sarah:
I don't think Harry's opinion matters all that much.  Snape must stay
alive until it is time for Harry to die, or else all is lost.  Of
course there would have been other ways of handling this, like giving
Harry an envelope that says "Don't open until you see Nagini riding
around in a bubble" but it's Harry Potter, so I'm sure he would have
just opened it early anyway.  But, no measures like this seem to have
been taken, so Snape must survive until then.

If Snape fought the Death Eaters, I am curious to know what you think
he should have done with Dumbledore.  Dumbledore looked to me about
ready to keel over anyway, and Snape couldn't cure him, or even keep
him alive much longer.  So the scenarios stand thus.  Snape fights
Death Eaters, Dumbledore dies with his boots off in a hospital bed,
probably painfully.  Snape dies soon of Vow.  Harry fails; Voldemort
wins.  Or, Draco kills Dumbledore, which does Snape no good and Draco
no good.  Or, Greyback kills Dumbledore, which does Snape no good and
certainly does Dumbledore no good.  [Insert list of other bit player
Death Eaters who could have killed Dumbledore.]  Or, it could have
gone down exactly as it did, which meant that Dumbledore died in what
is probably one of the less painful and more distinguished manners,
and sealed Voldemort's confidence in Snape.  And Harry Potter doesn't
even suspect anything about a setup.  I think it is really the best
way for this to play out, and I think Snape knows it too.

> Carol:
> You don't know that. I've already given evidence that he didn't want
> to do it.

Sarah:
Yes, but I think may be ascribing a higher degree of truth than I do,
to Snape's threats when he wants something from Dumbledore.  This is
after the Vow has already been taken, so Snape already knows he has to
do it anyway.

> Carol:
> Perhaps it will help to reread the scene.

Sarah:
I did reread it while I was writing that post.  I guess I should have
said, Snape showed up, checked everything out, pushed Malfoy out of
his way which everyone else managed to get out of on their own, then
awaited final confirmation of the request for "a moment" before
blowing Dumbledore away, stat.  It's not like he stood up there as
long as Draco or something.

Carol:
> Can you show me counterevidence that he's glad to do it?

Sarah:
I don't consider him glad.  I consider him committed.  I don't
consider him glad to do any of this stuff he's been doing for sixteen
years.  Teaching, spying, saving Harry Potter, any of it.

Carol:
> Incidentally, how do you account for his expression if it's not
> revulsion at the deed he has to perform and either self-hatred like
> Harry's in the cave or fierce anger at DD for placing him in this
> position? And you say "of course he's angry about it," but you also
> imply that it's no big deal; he'd have done it anyway. That seems
> contradictory to me.

Sarah:
I don't see how being angry about having to do something, negates
having to do it anyway and knowing that one has to.  As above, I don't
think Snape is too gleeful about any of the stuff Dumbledore makes him
do, but he does it anyway.  

> Carol:
> Placing himself in the position of kill or be killed is convenient for
> Snape? 

Sarah:
He was already in the position before of kill or be a complete
failure.  May as well add more consequences for not doing it on to the
list, since it has to be done already, like it or not. 

Carol:
> And possibly you're forgetting, "I've lied for you, spied for
> you, risked my life for you." Convenient for Snape? I don't think so.

Sarah:
No, this is getting redundant, but as I've said several times, I think
that is manufactured drama for the purpose of this particular debate
with Dumbledore.  Also, for foreshadowing.  I barely believe anything
Snape says ever, with the possible exception of the Prince's Tale, and
here he has a clear motive to trump things up.  

> Carol:
> Which is not exactly the same as his own convenience or wanting to
do it.

Sarah:
No, the convenience is side benefits Snape will now derive from doing
this thing he planned on doing anyway.  

> Carol:
> Wouldn't he look like a hero if he protected Dumbledore from the other
> DEs and died fighting them, just as Sirius Black died protecting
> Harry? 

Sarah:
I guess, but fame isn't everything.  He would then be dead, soon
followed by Dumbledore, and Harry Potter would fail his mission and
Voldemort would win.   I'd rather him be successful than appear
successful to others, which is what he did.  And as above, I'm not too
interested in Harry's opinion on this during the end of HBP, since he
doesn't really know what's going on anyway.  When he found out the
real scoop, he decided to name a kid after the guy.  Which Snape is
probably still spinning in his grave about.