HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2.

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184368

Carol earlier:
> > Snape sees what's uppermost in the mind of the person whose eyes
he's looking into. In Harry's case, it's the HBP's Potions book.
> 
> Sarah:
> It is true that it worked like that on that occasion.  Other times,
he just saw random things like getting chased by dogs and making out
with Cho.

Carol again:

that wasn't routine Legilimency, though. It was memories produced by
the Legilimency spell. And we don't know, of course, how much Snape
actually saw. Since Harry saw snatches of three of Snape's memories
when the Protego caused that spell to backfire on Snape, I suspect
that Snape saw something very similar to what Harry saw but chose not
to elaborate on it. He certainly saw "that man and that room" on a
different occasion, as well as the corridor in the MoM on yet another
occasion. But, again, what he sees when he looks into Harry's or
Draco's or Narcissa's eyes is different from the more detailed
memories that he sees when he casts the Legilimens spell, and the only
example we have is of the Potions book floating to the surface of
Harry's mind. (In GoF, he seems to be thinking of Hermione breaking
into Snape's "stores" in their second year and of Dobby stealing
gillyweed, but we don't know for sure what image or images Snape saw.)
The single image is in stark contrast to the violation of
Gregorovitch's mind by Voldemort in DH. I suspect that LV walks freely
through Snape's mind as well, which makes Snape's superb Occlumency
all the more remarkable. LV doesn't realize that anything is being
concealed from him, that he's being "hoodwinked," as Snape puts it in
his rhetorical question to Bellatrix.

Carol earlier:
> > Certainly, you're free to think that he didn't know what Draco's
mission was until he looked into her eyes. Unfortunately, that's
contrary to canon.
> 
> Sarah:
> Agreed.  <snip> prior to the publication of DH I believed that Snape
found out Draco's mission at that moment.  I no longer believe this,
thanks to DH.  All I'm saying is that it seemed to be getting set up
that way, and would make more sense to me if it had been.  Which it
wasn't.  I thought X, but X was clearly jossed, so instead it is Y,
which in my opinion makes less sense than X, but it is what it is.

Carol:
But thinking that Snape already knew the mission (minus the Vanishing
Cabinet) and saw something else, for example, Draco's imagined death,
in Narcissa's eyes, and softened his stance for that reason, would
solve the problem, right? (BTW, before I read "The Unbreakable Vow," I
thought the same thing you did, that Snape was bluffing in "Spinner's
End." I just changed my view before DH.)
 
> Sarah:
> No, we agree perfectly fine.  DH was published, and in it, Snape
talked to Dumbledore about what Draco's mission was before the Black
sisters came to his house.  We could have agreed to disagree plenty
back before DH came out, but in this case I think we must agree to
agree.  Before DH, Snape did tell the Black sisters he knew what the
mission was, but I think everything he says in that chapter (or
basically, ever) must be questioned, which I did up until I saw that
he talked to Dumbledore about it first. <snip>

Carol:
Agree to agree? That's a novel concept! :-) Seriously, though, I agree
that everything Snape says in "Spinner's End" should be examined
carefully. How much is truth, how much is half-truth, how much is an
out-and-out lie? I think we should take what Snape says to Bellatrix
with a grain of salt (for example, he wants both her and Narcissa to
think that DD's "serious injury" is the result of slowed reflexes, not
putting on a cursed ring, and he certainly conceals the fact that DD
is dying). But his motives in dealing with Narcissa are different. I
see caution but no desire to deceive, as is the case with Bellatrix,
who must be made to believe (as Narcissa already does) that he's loyal
to LV.

Carol earlier:
> > I think it [the UV] *is* a big deal because it robs Snape of the
opportunity to back out. He has to keep his promise or die. Certainly,
he already intended to do all those things, but he could fail or he
could change his mind with no dire consequences for himself. Now it's
his death or Dumbledore's with no way out unless DD dies from the ring
curse before Draco can get near him.
> 
> Sarah:
> I guess the difference of opinion here stems from two sources. 
First, I don't believe Snape could back out or fail without dire
consequence for himself even absent the Vow.  Second, it comes down to
how resigned Snape already is to doing this.  I think he is totally
committed, and any threats to the contrary are idle manipulation
attempts.  Such as:
> 
> > "What about my soul, Dumbledore?" "You take too much for granted,
Dumbledore. Maybe I don't want to do it any more!"
> 
> Sarah:
> After the first quote, Dumbledore strongly implies that there will
be no wizarding moral implications, since Snape is basically going to
euthanize him.

Carol:
He says that only snape knows the answer, which is no help at all. And
Snape only nods. He doesn't state that he'll do it no matter what.
Saving DD from being savaged by Fenrir Greyback is one thing, but
saving him from another DE's AK is another. That AK would save Draco's
soul *and* euthanize Dumbledore just as effectively as Snape's would.
I think that Snape is agreeing that *if* the circumstances make it
necessary, he'll do it, but there are still ways out, including
keeping the confrontation from occurring at all. (As I said earlier,
he knows that Draco won't confront DD without backup, and with extra
protections put on the castle, he may well think that Draco can't get
near DD, who may die before the year is out, in any case. If so,
Snape's promise, and later, the UV, will die with him.)

Sarah:
> I've already addressed what I think about the second quote.  Snape
also tells the Black sisters that he's pretty sure Voldemort wants him
to do it anyway, and he even cracks a joke to Dumbledore about whether
he'd like to die now, or have a moment to compose his epitaph.  That's
canon. <snip>

Carol:
Yes, it is. But your view that he's manipulating Dumbledore and not
genuinely changing his mind about wanting to kill DD is not. (It's
quite clear from the initial interview, the hand twitch, the
hesitation on the tower, and Snape's facial expression, that he
*doesn't want to kill DD. I'm quite sure that he didn't want things to
go that far. The initial promise was a calculated risk; the UV even
more so given the deadly consequences for him if he failed. Before, it
was kill DD if the circumstances required it--to save Draco's soul, to
euthanize DD, and to stay in LV's good graces--with the possibility of
"slithering out of action" if the circumstances allowed it. Now it's
kill DD if Draco seems about to fail or die himself. There's no way to
slither out of that except to make sure that the confrontation never
happens.

Sarah: 
> If Snape fought the Death Eaters, I am curious to know what you
think he should have done with Dumbledore.  Dumbledore looked to me
about ready to keel over anyway, and Snape couldn't cure him, or even
keep him alive much longer.  So the scenarios stand thus.  Snape
fights Death Eaters, Dumbledore dies with his boots off in a hospital
bed, probably painfully.  Snape dies soon of Vow.  Harry fails;
Voldemort wins. <snip>

Carol:
That's not what I was thinking. In my view, Dumbledore would die on
the tower in any case, either killed by the ring/potion combination or
by a DE. But Snape could take out Fenrir Greyback to make sure DD
didn't die *that* way and kill one or two other DEs before dying
himself, either killed by a fellow DE or dying from the vow. From
everyone's perspective except the DEs and Dumbledore, Snape appears to
be a hero, especially if Harry survives to tell the tale. Yes, of
course, Harry would fail and LV would win, but that wouldn't keep
Snape from being a heroic defender of "the greater good," especially
if he placed himself in front of DD and took an AK intended for him.
That, before we knew about his promise to DD, seemed like the right
thing to do. Killing DD seemed like the act of a traitor and a
villain. Now, of course, we know better. I mean that Snape would be
*regarded* as a hero, not that he would really be one. With the UV and
his promise to DD to protect the students, he has to kill DD and come
out *looking like* a villain rather than a hero. That he is, in fact,
a hero we learn in DH. But for nearly a year, he looks like anything
but, whereas if he'd died defending DD, he would look like a hero
(and, in some respects, would be one because he killed DEs and fought
for the right side), but, I agree, he would be a failure. He had to
live to carry out DD's plans and to protect Harry and Draco. But I
think he must have been tempted by the alternative, killing bad guys
instead of his mentor, or even just refusing to do the horrible deed
and just dropping dead from the vow.

I *agree* with you that Snape did the right thing, the only thing that
would save Harry and Draco and protect the school and allow Snape to
carry out his essential role in DD's plans. But I think that Snape,
nevertheless, did not want to do it. He hesitated. He had to be begged
twice to do it. He looked into DD's eyes and didn't like what he saw.
And he was outraged when Harry called him a coward because what he
did, killing and running away and looking like a villain and a coward,
took a lot more courage than fighting the DEs, dying with DD, and
looking like a hero.


> > Carol:
> > Perhaps it will help to reread the scene.
> 
> Sarah:
> I did reread it while I was writing that post.  I guess I should
have said, Snape showed up, checked everything out, pushed Malfoy out
of his way which everyone else managed to get out of on their own,
then awaited final confirmation of the request for "a moment" before
blowing Dumbledore away, stat.  It's not like he stood up there as
long as Draco or something.

Carol:
Oh, well. I see it as absolute revulsion at what DD wants him to do
and hesitating long enough (though only a matter of seconds) for DD to
become desperate: "Severus, please!" That plea indicates to me that he
really feared that Snape was going to break both his promise and the
UV and die there on the tower, along with DD and, most likely, Draco
and Harry. I think it took every ounce of courage and determination
that he could summon to do that deed. Once he did it, of course, there
was no going back, and he takes charge, snatching Draco by the collar
(or the nape of his neck, ouch!), ordering the DEs off the tower
before Harry can go after them, stopping the Crucio, etc. He also
takes care to send DD's body over the ramparts. But I think that, up
till the moment when Flitwick came to him for help, he hoped to avoid
killing DD. And even when he entered the tower, assessed the
situation, and pushed Draco out of the way (effectively relieving him
of the responsibility for killing DD), he still did not want to do it.
His wand was not raised until after DD's second plea, which followed
the look into DD's eyes.
> 
> Carol:
> > Can you show me counterevidence that he's glad to do it?
> 
> Sarah:
> I don't consider him glad.  I consider him committed.  I don't
consider him glad to do any of this stuff he's been doing for sixteen
years.  Teaching, spying, saving Harry Potter, any of it. <snip>

Carol:
I agree that he's committed. But I still think that, for those few
seconds, he was tempted to die rather than kill Dumbledore. He may
even have hated DD for putting him in that position (which, perhaps,
made killing him possible). I don't question Snape's dedication to his
mission or his courage. It takes more courage to do what you don't
want to do "for the greater good" than to do what you've already
resolved to do and agree is necessary. Snape knew what DD wanted; he
knew all but one reason why DD wanted him and only him to do it. But
just as Harry had to psych himself to face Voldemort, expecting to die
to destroy the Horcrux, I think that Snape had to psych himself to
kill Dumbledore, to murder his mentor for "the greater good" and make
himself look like a villain. Had he simply walked into the room and
fired off the AK, with no look into DD's eyes and no pleas from DD, I
would agree with you that this was just business as usual. But those
bits of evidence and the two descriptions of Snape's expression,
especially the look of torment when Harry calls him coward, tell me
that it was the hardest thing Snape ever had to do.

> > Carol earlier:
> > Wouldn't he look like a hero if he protected Dumbledore from the
other DEs and died fighting them, just as Sirius Black died protecting
Harry? 
> 
> Sarah:
> I guess, but fame isn't everything.  He would then be dead, soon
> followed by Dumbledore, and Harry Potter would fail his mission and
> Voldemort would win.   I'd rather him be successful than appear
> successful to others, which is what he did. <snip>

Carol:
I agree with you that not killing DD would be failing in his mission
and that doing so is, ironically, more heroic than fighting the DEs.
But I'm not talking about what you and I prefer. I'm talking about
what Snape, at that moment, would prefer--to die fighting heroically
rather than killing his mentor before Harry's eyes, looking like a
traitor and a murderer. He made the right decision in the end, but it
caused him mental and spiritual anguish, not to mention the trust of
the Order members and the good opinion of everyone opposed to Voldemort.

Again, I'm *not* saying that it would have been right or more heroic
to kill the DEs and try (vainly) to prevent Dumbledore's death. I'm
only saying that I suspect that Snape was tempted by that option, to
die fighting heroically (a la Sirius Black) rather than live in
infamy, possibly imperiling his own soul, for having committed an
*apparently* cowardly and villainous act.

As for Harry's opinion not counting, Harry's view is that of the
majority of readers, since we see from this pov, and JKR is
intentionally making Snape look like a villain. It would also, if he
survived, be the opinion of the majority of the WW because his account
of what happened would appear in the Daily Prophet--until, that is, LV
took over the MoM and the school, leaving it in the control of the
Carrows and other DEs instead of Snape. In those few seconds on the
tower, perhaps a minute at most (though it must have seemed longer to
those involved, especially Harry, DD, and Snape), he must have
realized exactly what was at stake, not only giving DD the death he
wanted but protecting Harry, Draco, and all the students by getting
the DEs out of Hogwarts and returning as headmaster (part of DD's plan
from the first, probably). He had to resist the temptation to die on
the spot or die fighting and instead "do the deed" that would cement
the hatred of the boy he was protecting against his every instinct and
desire.

Carol, afraid that she's sounding redundant but also thinking that her
position has been partially misunderstood