Abus, Scrimgeour, and Harry (WAS: Re: Deathly Hallows reread CH 1 -3)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 186238

> Alla:
> Sure, this was part of what Scrimgeour wanted. I think though that this meant that he also wanted Harry's help in fighting, not just being a talk person. I see only help in that. Maybe Dumbledore did not want to see that it could go further than that?

Zara:
I do not believe he wanted more. He did not pitch it to Harry that way. He suggests it does not even matter is Harry is the Chosen One, just that people do.  He describes Harry's duties as "not onerous", just being seem to stop by the Ministty so people would "think" he is working for them.

> Alla:
> I do not follow though, could you clarify? How come Fudge thinking that Scrimgeour will have more success translates into such communication indeed taking place, communication between Scrimgeour and Dumbledore I mean? Yes, letter was written, but was there a response, let alone a flurry of letter writing?

Zara:
Fudge knew what the letter was about. We know it received a response, because the Prophet reported a rift between Albus and Scrimmy.

> Alla:
> I did not need  for Dumbledore to reassure Harry that Scrimgeour is indeed good, if Dumbledore does not feel that way. All that I needed him to say is that he is Harry's ally, period, end of story. This answer certainly poisoned **my** mind against him right from the beginning, therefore to me it is a fair assumption to make that Harry's may have been poisoned too.

Zara:
I have two objections to this line of reasoning.
1) It is my opinion Albus would have considered "he is Harry's ally, period, end of story" a flat out lie, something, remarkably enough, he never in seven books, told to Harry.
2) And you and Harry would have believed it just as you believed such unequivocal statements as "I trust Severus Snape completely". <bg>

> Alla:
> Yes Harry does bring Stan up and believe me, in HBP I was oh so nodding my head – how dear big bad Ministry arrested that innocent kid? After all we have Sirius' example and did not they learn anything? Only see after DH I really do not share the belief in Stan's innocence anymore and therefore when I reread this conversation, I am thinking – how about you learn more Harry before you speak?

Zara:
This ignores that Harry had already drawn a conclusion for himself, with no input from Albus. P. 221 of the US paperback edition of HBP has half a page of dialogue among the Trio which I will not reproduce. But they considered the published circumstances of his arrest and their own personal knowledge of Stan to reach the conclusion he was innocent, and the arrest was a PR stunt. Arthur mentioning Albus agreed about Stan's innocence weeks  later did not form Harry's opinion - it just reminded him of something he had been upset about before, based only on his own opinions and those of his best friends.

I would also add this is irrelevant. Even if Arthur, his Ministry sources who interviewed Stan and considered him innocent, Albus, Harry, Ron, and Hermione were all wrong, it does not alter the Ministry's poor handling of the case. No trial, like you say. And Stan was not even the only one - see my Arthur quote, there were two others of which Arthur was aware.

> Alla:
> No, and of course you know my answer to your hypothetical, I consider Guantanamo to be our disgrace, but see while I think that this person X should have certainly protest all the methods that he or she finds despicable, if such person started saying that people who are there are innocent just because this person says so, I would call this person X a fool.

Zara:
X=Harry. In this case, X knows a detainee personally and believes based on that personal knowledge and facts in the public record, that X is not a terrorist. But again, the analogy is really that X and Harry object to the *policy*.

> Alla:
> Moreover, if Harry would have said, give Stan a fair trial and then I will work with you, absolutely, I would have totally support it.  In short what I would have liked Harry to do is to make up his own mind as to whether he wants to work with Ministry. How about agreeing to speak if he would be allowed a visit with Stan? And how about having a bit more time to judge for himself If he is under curse or not?

Zara:
But this *is* basically what happened. Albus appealed to Scrimmy personally (without Harry's knowledge until Christmas. No Change. Harry personally brought it up. No Change. Harry personally brought it up *again*. No Change. Either Scrimmy is a moron (which I do not believe) or he was not willing to compromise here.

Further - Scrimmy offered the "tough times call for tough measures" defense of his actions to Harry, not the "Boy, I know a heck of a lot more about it than you do and I swear he is guilty as sin" defense. To me, this made clear that Scrimmy did not care whether or not Stan was guilty. Just as he does not care whether Harry is really the Chosen One. So long as people think Stan off the street means they are safer, Stan can stay in jail. So long as people think Harry is working for the Ministry and think this makes them safer, that is all that matters.

> Alla:
> At the end of HBP I certainly felt that Harry's mind was made up, only I felt that Dumbledore made up his mind for him. And by saying that he is still a Dumbledore's man (not his own man) I feel Harry confirms it for me.

Zara:
I've already indicated where the evidence Harry made up his own mind about Stan is located.

But to me, it was also abundantly clear that Harry did not like Scrimmy's tactics in talking to him. He perceived the empty flattery when Scrimmy said things like "They think you quite the hero - which, of course, you are, Harry, chosen or not. How many times have you faced He-Who-Must-Not Be-Named now?" (Because, note, when requesting the services of this remarkable individual he speaks of, he wants something Lockhart would be more inclined to deliver).

Or the obvious attempt to bribe him, by suggesting his way into the Auror program could be greased if he cooperated. Albus was not there pointing these things out to Harry. Albus did not warn Harry that Scrimmy would take such approaches. Harry had simply acquired enough experience by then so see it for himself.

Harry is not even told by Albus that it was this PR idea of Scrimmy's that was the source of the rift. Albus only refers to that rift when Harry brings it up after Christmas and speculates on the reason. 

I think Harry declares himself Dumbledore's man there, because that is how Scrimmy labelled him in their first conversation.