Deathly Hallows reread CH 1 -3

Sun Apr 19 23:28:51 UTC 2009

No: HPFGUIDX 186234

Carol adds:
We also have two specific instances of DD offering advice to Fudge and of Fudge
rejecting it. The first is near the end of GoF when DD advises Fudge to "remove
Azkaban from the control of the dementors" and "send envoys to the giants" (Am.
ed. 707, 708). The second occurs during Harry's hearing in OoP, when DD says
things like, "We must ask ourselves why somebody within the Ministry ordered a
pair of dementors into that alleyway on the second of August" and "undoubtedly
the Ministry will be making an inquiry into why two dememtors were so very far
from Azkaban" (Am. ed. 146, 147), essentially reiterating his point that the
dementors can't be trusted and likely to form an alliance with Voldemort if they
haven't already, along with the (new) implication that someone at the Ministry
also can't be trusted.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Sorry for being unclear, of course I remember Dumbledore's conversation with Fudge at the end of GoF, and when I say that he washed his hands of ministry, I specifically mean after GoF. 

I did not remember OOP quote, however I think that what he says at Harry's hearing cannot be considered a good faith advice, because his mindset IMO is not anymore on trying to find ways with ministry, but I understand how it can be taken as such.

All of this just to say that I was thinking of Dumbledore and Scrimgeour, not of Dumbledore and Fudge. But I suppose Dumbledore's unwillingness to work with Scrimgeour (IMO) cannot be considered in vacuum and being burned, I can see how he would not want to. But this is **the only** way I can justify it, Dumbledore  being burnt before. Anything else to me is just well, not good.

And now to Zara's.

Zara:
Scrimgeour wanted very specific assistance from Harry. Basically, for Harry to
be a PR boost to the Ministry. In my opinion, Albus did not believe this would
be either useful for the war/Wizard society, or good for Harry. And thus, I
think he had no obligation to further it.

Alla:

Sure, this was part of what Scrimgeour wanted. I think though that this meant that he also wanted Harry's help in fighting, not just being a talk person. I see only help in that. Maybe Dumbledore did not want to see that it could go further than that?

Zara:
We are not shown any scenes. Albus and Scrimgeour would not have been having
this sort of discussion in front of Harry. We can deduce they DID have such
conversations, from dialogue and events other characters were in.

Such as:
> HBP, "The Other Minister":
> "He'll (Scrimgeour) be here in a moment, he's just finishing a letter to
Dumbledore."
> "I wish him luck," said Fudge, sounding bitter for the first time. "I've been
writing to Dumbledore twice a day for the past fortnight, but he won't budge. If
he'd just been prepared to persuade the boy, I might still be...Well, maybe
Scrimgeour will have more success."

Alla:

I do not follow though, could you clarify? How come Fudge thinking that Scrimgeour will have more success translates into such communication indeed taking place, communication between Scrimgeour and Dumbledore I mean? Yes, letter was written, but was there a response, let alone a flurry of letter writing?

Fudge indulged in a lot of wishful thinking, won't you agree? 

Zara:
Albus by no means poisons Harry against Scrimmy. His evaluation of the man, when
asked by Harry:

> HBP. "Horace Slughorn":
> "Is he...Do you think he's good?"
> "An interesting question," said Dumbledore. "He is able, certainly. A more
decisive and forceful personality than Cornelius."
> "Yes, but I meant-"
> "I know what you meant. Rufus is a man of action, and having fought Dark
Wizards for most of his working life, does not underestimate Lord Voldemort."

Alla:

Oh I really beg to differ about Albus not poisoning Harry against Scrimgeour. Believe me, there are a lot of moments in the books where it hard for me to remember my first reaction to them. I however remember this one for some reason very clearly. I am sure you can guess my first reaction. It was something like that. Oh, I see, Dumbledore thinks man stinks **big time** and no better than Fudge in a sense. I did not need  for Dumbledore to reassure Harry that Scrimgeour is indeed good, if Dumbledore does not feel that way. All that I needed him to say is that he is Harry's ally, period, end of story. This answer certainly poisoned **my** mind against him right from the beginning, therefore to me it is a fair assumption to make that Harry's may have been poisoned too.

Zara:
So Albus and Scrimmy are still communicating. And still disagreeing.
Harry brings Stan up to Scrimmy in the conversation they have later this
evening. It is a view he already had (the Trio all are shocked by his arrest a
few chapters before), that was reinforced by Arthur - but Albus never discussed
it with Harry. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes Harry does bring Stan up and believe me, in HBP I was oh so nodding my head – how dear big bad Ministry arrested that innocent kid? After all we have Sirius' example and did not they learn anything? Only see after DH I really do not share the belief in Stan's innocence anymore and therefore when I reread this conversation, I am thinking – how about you learn more Harry before you speak?

I mean, sure he **could** be innocent, but he was **fighting** with DE for goodness sake. And while I of course do not consider Voldemort and his bunch the brightest bulbs, I have to stop and ask myself, eh why the heck would they bring somebody under the curse in the fighting where theoretically at least somebody from other side may uncurse him and he will turn against DE this very second?

Could it be that Dumbledore and Harry were, eh wrong and Harry's half second determination that Stan was under curse was wrong as well? I of course cannot be hundred percent sure, but I think it is a very distinct possibility now.

Zara:
<SNIP>
It's not Snape I'm saying he should have kept from the Ministry, it's Horcruxes <SNIP>

Alla:

Oh I disagree then. I think Harry needed every possible help, but with Dumbledore and Horcruxes, I just do not want to go there right now, it is too drastic, heh.

Zara:
So are you saying that having Harry Potter endorse the policies of the
Scrimgeour Administration would have actually produced some useful effect? So
useful Harry should have overlooked his principled objections to those policies
(such as the arrests and continued detention of three innocent people, as Harry
believes)? <SNIP>

Alla:

No, and of course you know my answer to your hypothetical, I consider Guantanamo to be our disgrace, but see while I think that this person X should have certainly protest all the methods that he or she finds despicable, if such person started saying that people who are there are innocent just because this person says so, I would call this person X a fool.

To go back to Potterland, I would have wanted them try harder and if say Harry decided to talk some more, to see whether it is working or not, I would have liked it better. Moreover, if Harry would have said, give Stan a fair trial and then I will work with you, absolutely, I would have totally support it.  In short what I would have liked Harry to do is to make up his own mind as to whether he wants to work with Ministry. How about agreeing to speak if he would be allowed a visit with Stan? And how about having a bit more time to judge for himself If he is under curse or not?

At the end of HBP I certainly felt that Harry's mind was made up, only I felt that Dumbledore made up his mind for him. And by saying that he is still a Dumbledore's man (not his own man) I feel Harry confirms it for me.

Funnily I think Harry became his own man when he figured that Dumbledore's plan is a good plan to follow, but I do not believe that he ever judged for himself if Ministry is a good ally or not, without DD influence that is.

JMO,

Alla