Ron WAS: Re: DH reread CH 4-5

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 186327


> > Pippin:
> > "Potter, that was foolish!"
> > "He spat at you," said Harry. -- DH ch 30 
> > 
> > Sounds like an excuse to me.
> 
> Magpie:
> In one sense of the word, yes. But I think it's more just like a reason. It doesn't sound like the kind of excuse I would associate with feeling badly about your action. Especially since I know in the next exchange Harry again stands by his decision. <snip>

Carol responds:
I agree with Magpie here. Harry is defending his action, yes, but he's not excusing it. But maybe that's because McGonagall criticizes it a "foolish" rather than wrong. And when she follows suit by using an Unforgiveable Curse herself, we get the impression that, in JKR's view, there's nothing to excuse, a double standard of morality that seems to violate what's been presented in the earlier books. That, I think, is why many readers find the segment so disturbing. (We certainly don't need it to show that Harry isn't a saint. We know that already. Has anyone counted the number of lies, including lies of omission, that the good characters tell in these books? And that's only one of Harry's imperfections. Too bad JKR can't bring herself to let him actually make a mistake in Quidditch, but I'm getting off the subject.)

In any case, the only indication that Harry has learned that vindictiveness and inflicting pain, even on evil people, are wrong is his forgiveness of Snape and Dumbledore, both of whom have had a much greater effect on his personal life, for good and ill, than Amycus Carrow. We can infer from his naming his second son after these characters that he's learned this lesson, and I think, given his rejection of the Elder Wand, we can safely infer that he won't be using any more Unforgiveable Curses, but we never see him directly regretting having Crucio'd Amycus Carrow--an interesting contrast to Draco's reluctance to Crucio Thorfinn Rowle, especially since Harry seems to be using Carrow as a scapegoat and an outlet for his anger. (If it were righteous anger, the Crucio would fail as it did with Bella in OoP.)

> Magpie:
> But if in the story we're not seeing anything come of it when the time comes and people choose easy over right, it's really not getting played out in any dramatic way. Choosing one over the other is never set up as something they have to do to succeed. Other things they do have to do to succeed. <snip>

Carol responds:
I had to read that last sentence twice to understand it! Just out of curiosity, what are those "other things" that (in your view) the characters have to do to succeed?


> Magpie:
> Nobody said anything about Harry having to feel those things. Harry doesn't feel any sort of remorse for several actions some might consider wrong. And sometimes he feels a twinge of remorse but never has to do anything about it. It's just not a big issue in the books.

Carol responds:
I find it interesting that Harry often feels remorse for, say, leading his friends into danger, but ends up doing the same thing again. As you say, the feeling never seems to last or is undermined and nipped in the bud by something else. For example, he regrets using Sectumsempra on Draco and nearly causing him to bleed to death, but his remorse is cut short (sad to say) by Snape's detention, which refocuses his thoughts toward the ostensible unfairness of making him miss Quidditch and what he regards as the petty vindictiveness of Snape's chosen punishment. (Detentions aren't supposed to be enjoyable, Harry!) Remorse is displaced by resentment. I can't tell whether JKR is intentionally leading Harry from regret for his actions or not, but, certainly, self-examination is not one of Harry's strengths. And Ginny's approval of Sectumsempra as "something good" to use against Draco Malfoy doesn't help, either. It's rather like McGonagall's approval of Harry's Crucio. And even Hermione's criticism is sidetracked onto the punishment (he'll miss Quidditch) rather than the wrongness of using an unknown spell labeled as being "for enemies." If there's a moral lesson to be learned from these experiences, Harry doesn't learn it as far as I can see. It's only after he enters the Pensieve and sees Snape's memories that his perspective seems to change. That experience leads simultaneously to empathy and self-sacrifice and ultimately (along with King's Cross) to forgiveness of those who have wronged him (as he's already forgiven Ron).

> Magpie:
> Ron faced bad choices whichever way he turned. Harry wanting him to destroy the Horcrux takes away the "easy" part. There's a bad consequence to not doing it. I just think this is a situation where everyone is too personally invested in everything to truly have an easy choice. I'm sure there are plenty of places we could describe in these terms, but I see no moments that are setting up a stark, dramatic choice that turns on exactly this phrase. What I do see are people faced with a lot of hard choices. It's a slightly different thing.

Carol responds:
I agree that this instance is much more complicated than a simple choice of "right vs. easy." For Ron, facing Horcrux!Tom, who expresses  and embodies all the secret fears and jealousies that Ron has been harboring and the Horcrux has been nurturing, it's a chance to recognize and conquer the doubts and fears that have been coming between him and the two people he loves best. It's a symbolic triumph with very real consequences for Ron's self-esteem, his relationships, and his happiness. For Harry, it's a revelation, an epiphany. Empathy has never been his strong point; he feels it on occasion, but it's as short-lived as his remorse. Through no fault of his own, he faces problems beyond the ordinary tribulations of growing up and beyond the dangers faced by everyone else in the WW as Voldemort takes over. If you're the Boy who Lived, the Chosen One, sought out by Voldemort and ultimately responsible for defeating him, it's hard to sympathize with fear of failing at Quidditch or envy of Harry's fame and (off-and-on) popularity. For him, Ron has the ideal life, growing up in a (mostly) happy Wizarding family. It's the life Harry might have had if his parents had lived (setting aside the relative poverty that bothers Harry not at all). The Horcrux allows him for the first time to know how Ron feels, to see the thoughts that Ron has never expressed, to understand him. I think that Harry would have forgiven Ron even if he hadn't seen those thoughts and fears enacted--he values Ron's friendship and is glad to have him back, not to mention grateful for being rescued. But the Horcrux vision gives him a first experience with empathy and paves the way, IMO, for the Pensieve excursion in "The Prince's Tale." Forgiving a friend's trespasses and empathizing with that friend's fears and failures prepares him to do exactly the same thing with "the man he hated."

Something much deeper than "right vs. easy" is going on here, and it's a crucial scene for Harry's development as well as Ron's. That's how I read it, anyway.

Carol, apologizing for jumping the gun on a chapter that Alla hasn't reached yet in her DH reread