Ron WAS: Re: DH reread CH 4-5

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 186325

> > Pippin: 
> > > Harry's crucio and many of his other actions are condemned by the excuses he made for them. He doesn't make excuses when he's done something to be proud of.
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > Harry doesn't make excuses for the Crucio that I remember--quite the opposite--and his author defends it as not that problematic--and that is a situation I would say works much better as right vs. easy. 
> 
> Pippin:
> "Potter, that was foolish!"
> "He spat at you," said Harry. -- DH ch 30 
> 
> Sounds like an excuse to me.

Magpie:
In one sense of the word, yes. But I think it's more just like a reason. It doesn't sound like the kind of excuse I would associate with feeling badly about your action. Especially since I know in the next exchange Harry again stands by his decision.

Pippin: 
> To interpret an action which the author says shows that Harry is not a saint -- in other words, not an example of holiness -- as if JKR thinks too much holiness is a bad thing is still beyond my comprehension.  Where in the books is real goodness disparaged?

Magpie:
It's not goodness that's disparaged, but being a goody-two shoes (i.e., "a saint") is never much admired. When people are compared to saints this way, "saint" is used as something inhumanly good. If not used sarcastically, it just means that the person isn't a paragon of virtue, without that being a tragedy. Saints aren't generally considered people you'd want to hang out with. I don't think JKR for one second thinks that it's a shame Harry isn't a saint.

Pippin: 
> JKR doesn't want Harry as a character to be too perfect -- but that's to make him believable, IMO, not because too much goodness in a real person is some sort of fault. 

Magpie:
She doesn't want Harry as a character to be too perfect, exactly. Which is why her saying he isn't a saint isn't much of a criticism. I'm not claiming here that JKR is waging a campaign against goodness. I am saying that JKR doesn't think Harry's un-saintly moments are a matter of concern. If it's so unbelievable for him to be good enough to be a saint, why would it be a problem that he isn't? Harry is good--exceptionally good--without being a saint.
 
> Magpie:
> Harry's choice of easy and wrong was just fine, with no bad consequences for him on any level in canon.
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> As Dumbledore says, we can't always judge an action by its consequences. That  offenses are forgiven does not mean that they weren't wrong. 

Magpie:
But if in the story we're not seeing anything come of it when the time comes and people choose easy over right, it's really not getting played out in any dramatic way. Choosing one over the other is never set up as something they have to do to succeed. Other things they do have to do to succeed. 

Pippin: 
>  Harry can certainly see that those who get the habit of crucio-ing people whenever they feel like it face bad consequences eventually. I understand why you think the reader might assume that Harry is different. But why should Harry think so?

Magpie:
Why would I assume Harry thinks about it at all? He Crucio's in a situation where he thinks it's appropriate and doesn't regret it. Since he has no plans to make a habit of it it's not really an issue. He doesn't have remorse for that but also doesn't want the Elder Wand. Choosing easy over right in that one situation didn't change that.

Pippin: 
> Remorse, canon says, is feeling the pain that you caused. It does not say that you have to feel  that you are  an unforgivable, miserable worthless wretch who doesn't deserve to live. That's not feeling the pain that you caused at all, IMO, because that doesn't have anything to do with realizing  what another person suffered -- it's just about you.

Magpie:
Nobody said anything about Harry having to feel those things. Harry doesn't feel any sort of remorse for several actions some might consider wrong. And sometimes he feels a twinge of remorse but never has to do anything about it. It's just not a big issue in the books.

> Pippin:
> 
> Ron tried to bear the horcrux equally with his friends although he soon realized that he was more susceptible to it than they were. (Making once more the point from the second task that a morally right choice is not necessarily the most sensible option.) When Ron returned, he begged Harry not to ask him to face the thing again, but finally agreed. Those were cases of choosing right over easy, IMO. 


Magpie:
Ron faced bad choices whichever way he turned. Harry wanting him to destroy the Horcrux takes away the "easy" part. There's a bad consequence to not doing it. I just think this is a situation where everyone is too personally invested in everything to truly have an easy choice. I'm sure there are plenty of places we could describe in these terms, but I see no moments that are setting up a stark, dramatic choice that turns on exactly this phrase. What I do see are people faced with a lot of hard choices. It's a slightly different thing.

-m