Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers)

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 187565

> Alla:
> 
„« Yep, I am inclined to think that your last sentence could have easily come true, I mean maybe not easily, but possibly. I mean, again I am coming from the idea that  we do know about prophecies that did not come true and based on this canon fact I am speculating that the reason they did not come true is because certain conditions for that were not fulfilled. I believe that Snape's involvement was a very significant condition to come true. I could be wrong of course, but this is what I believe.

Potioncat:
I've just gone back to OoP and re-read "The Department of Mysteries" and "The Lost Prophecy."

Ch 34 "Tiny, yellowing labels had been stuck beneath each glass orb on the shelf. Some of them had a weird. Liquid glow; others were as dull and dark within as blown light bulbs."

I don't see that we are told that any of the prophecies did not come true. There are lit orbs and dark ones throughout the room. It would seem to me that the lit orbs are prophecies still in play; and the dark ones are completed prophecies. I guess other readers could interpret it differently, but at best we're left with the unanswered question, Do all prophecies come true? BTW, I think there's a difference between a prophecy and a prediction. 


Alla: 
„« Absolutely, I agree that writer intends for prophecy to play out if it is in the storyline, I however not sure if I agree that if we are looking from within the story that in Potterverse especially once prophecy is spoken it is just has to come true.

Potioncat standing in the Potterverse:
I was surprised at something DD said that I hadn't quite picked up on before. I recalled DD being dismissive of Divination, but clearly he isn't dismissing it all; he is saying he was against teaching it.

"¡Kthough it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. ¡K  I was disappointed. It seemed to me that she had not a trace of the gift herself."

There seems to be a way to identify the gift of Divination, and perhaps DD didn't feel it was worth the effort to teach it to students who didn't have the gift. (Which is kind of how I feel about some high school courses.)

In "The Lost Prophecy" DD tells Harry about the 'flaw in the plan' (so now I'll have to go back and see how this flaw compares to the one in DH). DD certainly believes in the prophecy. He has put off telling Harry about it, because he thinks it's too hard for a young boy to take.

DD says that LV hadn't heard the whole prophecy and didn't know that attacking the child might give that child the power. So it again seems to me, that DD let Snape go, knowing LV would hear just enough to endanger himself. This is reinforced by DD's repeating comments that when he began to care about Harry he wasn't able to carry out his plan as well as he intended. This reinforces my belief that the prophecy was in play as soon as DD and Snape heard it, because in their own way both acted on it.

DD does seem to indicate twice, that a prophecy can be tweaked. First he's saying the Chosen One could have been Neville--but that LV's choice determined the outcome.  DD's wording is that both had parents "having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." Second that LV's attempt to kill the child is what gave Harry the power and it might have been better for LV if he had waited. 

I think JKR said that if Alice had been killed trying to save Neville he would not have been protected. So I think if LV had chosen Neville and killed him, he probably would have gone after Harry too, just in case. Then we'd have the dead "extra one" and Harry still chosen.

On the other hand, (imho) if LV had waited a little, he would have dismissed Neville as ever being the one with the power and would still have chosen Harry. I guess that brings us right back to the issue of whether the prophecy could have played out differently or been completely neutralized. 

I did get off on a tangent in earlier posts with other ways the prophecy might have been delivered. I was trying to show that the events didn't have to happen exactly as they did to still work out. 

(Stepping out of the Potterverse for a moment) Has anyone seen "Dogma"? Snape--I mean Metatron--has to tell the youth Jesus about his Divine roll. The angel says how painful it was to tell the boy. That plot line just seems to be echoed in the HP story and I've wondered if JKR saw the movie. It comes up again in DH when it's Snape not DD (Metatron, not god) who tells Harry. (we now return to our regularly scheduled program.)

Potioncat, wondering why if Lily narrowly escaped LV three times, it's LV's 4th attempt that causes Snape to ask DD to save her.