Scrimgeour and Harrys raised fist (Was: Umbridge's Actions in OOP )

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 187631

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, terrianking at ... wrote:
>
> 
> Dave:
> But in Harry's confrontation with Scrimgeour (HBP,  chapter 16) Harry 
> holds up his scarred hand to him, and Scrimgeour asks no  questions 
> about it, as if he knew perfectly well how those scars got  there. I 
> think the Ministry knew perfectly well what Umbridge was doing,  and 
> indeed, probably applauded her for "daring to  discipline".
>  
> Robert:
>  
> It's stated in the books that Harry isn't the only one who was disciplined  
> in this manner. While he may have unobservant relatives who could care less 
> what  happened to him while he was away, the others who  (Lee Jordan is the 
> only  name I can think of off-hand) faced the same punishment most probably 
> didn't. I  know if my child came home for Christmas holiday with a healing 
> scar on her hand  in the shape of words I would notice and want to know how 
> it got there. Even  Harry wasn't successful at hiding his hand for long. 
> The Ministry had to have been told about it by angry parents at some time  
> during Umbridge's tenure, and I agree. Fudge probably did back her  up.  I 
> don't see how Scimgeour, working at the Ministry as head of the  aurors 
> office didn't at least hear about it from someone. 
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> Dave:
> As for the Dementors, I'm sure she gave Scrimgeour a nice  little 
> cover story, claiming that the attack was the start of the  Dementors' 
> rebellion, she knew nothing about it, blah, blah, blah. And  
> Dumbledore and Harry are disliked by Scrimgeour enough that he  
> certainly was not going to believe them over  her.
> 
> Robert:
> Didn't she admit in front of the students at Hogwarts that she gave that  
> order?
> Those kids are awfully secretive about school life if none of this,  
> including the attempted Crucio,  ever got out to the general public.
>  
>  
> Robert
>
Carol responds:
She admitted it in front of HRH, Neville, Ginny, Luna, and the Inquisitorial Squad. We know that Harry didn't report it to anyone, Hermione never tells her parents anything about Hogwarts (except that she's been appointed Prefect, which they'll "understand"), and the Weasleys clearly don't know anything about it or they'd have said so, as would Neville's formidable grandmother. As for Xenophilius Lovegood, who would believe anything that the editor of the Quibbler said even if Luna reported it to him? And the parents of the Inquisitorial Squad students aren't likely to complain to the MoM that one of its members sent Dementors after Harry Potter--or that she intended to Crucio him. Besides, since she never performed the spell, there's no evidence, just as there's no evidence that she sent the Dementors. How could anyone prove that charge, especially after the Dementors deserted Azkaban en masse and joined Voldemort?

As for Lee Jordan, the only other student that we know of who had to do lines with Umbridge's quill, he seems to have recovered quickly thanks to the Murtlap potion. I doubt that he reported it to his parents, either.

Scrimgeour is anti-Voldemort, whatever his other faults. If Scrimgeour knew that Umbridge was in league with a Death Eater like Lucius Malfoy, whom she mentions several times, and recruiting Death Eaters' children to do her dirty work, I seriously doubt that he would have allowed her to retain a position in his administration. And if he suspected that she had cruelly punished Harry (or threatened to Crucio him or sent Dementors after him), he would have been foolish in the extreme to mention her when he's trying to recruit Harry as the MoM's mascot. He tells Harry that Umbridge has mentioned Harry's ambition to be an Auror and that that could be arranged--he's trying to bribe Harry and seems to think that Umbridge is on Harry's side. (Obviously, *she* would try to create that impression, too, now that Voldemort is known to be back and Harry is regarded as the Chosen One rather than an attention-seeking liar.) Harry reacts, not by immediately raising his fist and pointing out that Umbridge scarred him for life but by quietly asking for clarification: "So basically you'd like to create the impression that I'm working for the Ministry?" Scrimgeour doesn't realize until Harry mentions Stan Shunpike's arrest a few paragraphs later that Harry doesn't approve of the Ministry's methods. Umbridge does not come up again directly. When Harry raises his fist to show the words carved on them, it's in response to Scrimgeour's apology for saying that it doesn't matter whether Harry is the Chosen One. Harry responds by telling him that those were the only honest words Scrimgeour has spoken and adding, "You don't care whether I live or die, but you do care that I help you convince everyone you're winning the war against Voldemort. I haven't forgotten, Minister [raises his fist and pauses]. I don't remember you rushing to my defense when I was trying to tell everyone Voldemort was back. The Ministry wasn't so keen to be pals last year."

There's no indication whatever that these words apply specifically to Dolores Umbridge. They seem to apply to the Ministry in general and to Scrimgeour personally ("you"). 

Scrimgeour's response to these words and to the raised fist, which looks like and is a gesture of defiance and hostility, is icy silence. If he connected the fist with Dolores Umbridge, he would almost certainly have dissociated himself with her and her methods, perhaps even promising to fire her. After all, he's trying to recruit Harry to the Ministry's side. As it is, he merely thinks that Harry has been brainwashed by Dumbledore to disapprove of the Ministry's methods.

Similarly, in DH, he seems to have no clue that the raised fist relates to Umbridge. Faced with Harry's lack of cooperation (again), Scrimgeour again invokes Dumbledore and says that it's not up to a seventeen-year-old boy to tell him how to do his job. Harry, who has already mentioned the cover-up of the Azkaban breakout and Mad-Eye Moody's death, responds to Scrimgeour's statement that they ought to be working together with, "I don't like your methods, Minister. Remember?" and raises his fist--again, an apparent gesture of defiance with no overt connection to Umbridge. In Harry's mind, the Ministry members are all the same, all connected to his ordeal of the previous year. But I see no way that Scrimgeour could know that. All he knows is that Harry disapproves of the arrest of Stan Shunpike and the cover-up of the Azkaban breakout, and that he's "Dumbledore's man through and through."

In this instance, Scrimgeour's expression hardens and he leaves without another word, having failed for reasons he doesn't fully understand (IMO) to enlist Harry's cooperation.

Not once does Harry directly connect the raised fist to Umbridge. If I were Scrimgeour (who doesn't seem to read or even see the carved words on the fist), I would interpret that raised fist to mean what a raised fist always means--hostility and defiance. Not only has Scrimgeour failed to recruit Harry as mascot, he's failed to discover what Dumbledore was up to--or why Harry might need the Sword of Gryffindor. As with Snape, Harry and a potential ally have failed to communicate and thoroughly misunderstood one another. We can think of it as Voldemort sowing discord among his enemies, setting them against one another and preventing them from working together.

We know where Scrimgeour's loyalties lie. He dies refusing to give the DEs information about Harry.

Carol, who thinks that the raised fist is just one more instance of the miscommunication motif that appears in all the books