First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185662

Leah:

I don't for one moment think that homework was given, and I don't
think I implied that it had been.

We don't know until Harry/the narrator tells us that he won't know
the answers because he has read the books and we know that. Snape
doesn't know that either.
<SNIP>

Alla:

And I am saying that the assumption Snape should make that children 
do not know the answers rather that they do for the reason that he 
did not give homework.


Leah:
<SNIP>
The reason I
mentioned Hermione was to show that it was entirely possible for a
child with no previous experience of the wizarding world to read the
textbooks and to learn from what is in them, without her being
required to do so, and that, and the way she is desperate to answer
tells us things about Hermione.

Alla:

And what I am trying to say is that I do not believe that Hermione 
**counts** to make this assumption. I think she is an exception to 
the rule,  and based on her we cannot make an assumption that 
muggleborn child will know these things on the first lesson.


Leah:
<SNIP>
Asking the questions and seeing how Harry deals with them tells
Snape some things about Harry. Knowing the answers in themselves is
not important. I'm not blaming Harry for not knowing, but his not
knowing
illustrates some things about Harry, for example that he does not
retain things from books particularly well without concentrating, ie
he doesn't have a photographic memory. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, I agree it tells us that Harry is not Hermione , but so are ALL 
other kids in the class and I do not see why Snape would suddenly 
want to see if he is like Hermione.  I was always told that I have 
pretty good memory,  but if I glanced through the book of Chemistry 
just because I never studied Chemistry before and I would be curious, 
I sincerely doubt that I would have remembered much. Now book of 
history, sure.

So, yes Harry is not Hermione. Snape does not know that Hermione is 
in class before he actually sees them, right? I just fail to see how 
that makes what he does in any way legitimate, except of the act of 
petty, vile, abusive little man (My opinion of course).

I often said in the past that what Snape does to Harry reads to me as 
attack of the mad dog, who knows he cannot kill, but wants to bite as 
hurtful as possible. But I think I should rethink it, because I like 
dogs too much.

> Alla:
>
> I am sorry I find this reason to be funny. So, if Harry does not
know
> answers he is not a Dark Lord and Vice versa?

Leah: No, of course not. But a child who knows a lot about magic,
who is interesting himself in magic he doesn't necessarily need to
know at this stage, who shows himself to be very bright AND has
apparently already defeated one Dark Lord, would bear a lot of
watching. It doesn't of course mean Harry would be dark, it's just
something to keep an eye on.

Alla:

Or it is of course possible that Snape saw Harry and instead saw 
James and wanted to knock him down, because he could not bear 
remembering that James won the girl and wanted eleven year old to 
suffer. 
Because by this analogy I think Hermione bears watching as next dark 
lord, no?


Leah: Yes, very probably. I'm not criticizing Harry here, I'm saying
that Harry knowing the answers to the questions would tell Snape one
thing about him and his not knowing might indicate other things. In
a
way it's like a normal classroom. No teacher asks a question
because they need to know what a bezoar does or what the square root
of 25 is. They ask because what a child might or might not answer
in different circumstances tells them about the child and its
learning and personality.

Alla:

Well, it is good that we agree that Harry is not to blame, we just 
disagree why Snape asked those questions. I see no justification for 
that, none. If he wanted to watch Harry, here is a bright idea for 
Snape - **watch**. Observe him, give him normal exercises, try to 
LEARN who Harry is. Maybe during several lessons?

Leah: I think they probably do, but that's unimportant as I've said
above. This is the point I'm trying to make: One child in the
class, who has no previous wizarding experience, does immediately
know all the answers to the questions. That tells us something about
Hermione. If Harry knew the answers to the questions, that would
indicate to us and to Snape that Harry is also that sort of child.
He isn't. There's nothing good or bad in it as far as I am
concerned, it is a fact to know about Harry.

Alla:

I understand the point that you are making, I just disagree that we 
can make this point based on Hermione.

Leah: I think they probably do, but that's unimportant as I've said
above. This is the point I'm trying to make: One child in the
class, who has no previous wizarding experience, does immediately
know all the answers to the questions. That tells us something about
Hermione. If Harry knew the answers to the questions, that would
indicate to us and to Snape that Harry is also that sort of child.
He isn't. There's nothing good or bad in it as far as I am
concerned, it is a fact to know about Harry.

Alla:

Not in my opinion, no. Harry says so quietly, without laughing till 
he looks at other kids. I suspect that this is what he observed in 
muggle school he went to, that other kids told that to teachers, etc.

Leah: Harry describes what happens. It is factually accurate that
Snape questions Harry, but it is presented to us from Harry's POV
and therefore the Harry filter. Harry later factually reports
various observations on Snape and the filter on this is that Snape
is trying to steal the Stone, kill Harry etc.

Alla:

To me filter kicks in when narrator reports without having enough 
information – Snape trying to kill Harry was an opinion made without 
sufficient information. This is reporting of the facts which later 
nobody disproves, I do not believe there is any filter here. 

Leah: 

McGonagall is pretty nasty to Neville too. 

Alla:

LOLOL. Yes, she is! Extremely so. That makes what Snape does better?

Leah:
I don't think Harry
is altogether the innocent victim here,Hermione neither),and I can't
see that he's in anyway traumatized by Potions, but Dumbledore
certainly doesn't concern himself with what goes on in any
classroom. But Snape does go to Dumbledore at a time which must be
very early in the first term (pre-Halloween at least)and let
Dumbledore know that he has major problems in his relationship with
Harry (and yes, it's a rant, but Dumbledore should be able to pick
the bones out of it and assist). All Dumbledore does is tell Snape
he's wrong in his assessment of Harry, give him another job to do,
and go back to reading a magazine. Great management there, Albus,
but of course Albus isn't managing a school, he's preparing to run a
war.

Alla:

Eleven year old is not altogether an innocent victim here? Okay.

And yes, that is the episode I had in mind when I said Snape got more 
support that he deserved. That is the help I expected Dumbledore to 
give Snape – stop it, or you will be fired immediately.

I was glad that he disagreed with Snape about Harry at least, but I 
did not expect him to allow Snape to continue his shenanigans either. 
Only I guess you wanted him to chastise Harry instead of Snape as I 
did?

But yes, I would  always hold Albus responsible for manipulating 
Snape into *protecting* Harry. I think by doing so and not stopping 
it he fully contributed.

JMO,

Alla