First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[littleleahstill]

No: HPFGUIDX 185661

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
>> Alla:
> 
> How does it help Snape to protect Harry to ask the questions we 
know
> that he will not know? I argued that many times and I do not 
remember
> that it was ever refuted with certainty. How would teachers tell
> especially to muggleborns that there is homework? There is nothing 
to
> that effect on that letter that Harry receives, isn't it?
> 
> YES, he read the books, he says that they are interesting, good for
> him, no he probably did not read or did not remember the part to 
> answer Snape's questions and as
> far as I understand neither him no Hermione had to do that. But
> Hermione reads and remembers everything, so the fact that she (and
> nobody else) knows the answer really does not tell me that it means
> homework was given.
> 

Leah:

 I don't for one moment think that homework was given, and I don't 
think I implied that it had been.

We don't know until Harry/the narrator tells us that he won't know 
the answers because he has read the books and we know that. Snape 
doesn't know that either.

I do think Draco and some of the Slytherins who are giggling do know 
the answers to some at least of the questions, by the way they 
react, but I disregarded that, because they are pureblood children 
who could have learned these things elsewhere.  The reason I 
mentioned Hermione was to show that it was entirely possible for a 
child with no previous experience of the wizarding world to read the 
textbooks and to learn from what is in them, without her being 
required to do so, and that, and the way she is desperate to answer 
tells us things about Hermione.   

Asking the questions and seeing how Harry deals with them tells 
Snape some things about Harry.  Knowing the answers in themselves is 
not important.  I'm not blaming Harry for not knowing, but his not 
knowing 
illustrates some things about Harry, for example that he does not 
retain things from books particularly well without concentrating, ie 
he doesn't have a photographic memory.  We do see that in Harry, for 
example he reads about Nicholas Flamel on Dumbledore's chocolate 
frog card, something which interested him at the time he was reading 
it, but later it took him ages to realise where he had 'seen' 
Flamel. The same thing happened in DH, when Harry saw the picture of 
Gellert in Skeeter's book, but then later couldn't remember how 
he 'knew' the golden haired boy in the photo with Dumbledore. So 
that particular fact about Harry is something which affects how 
Harry operates in the world, and might be worth knowing.

> 
> Alla:
> 
> So, Snape needed to give Harry some of preliminary humiliation if 
he
> is "arrogant like his father"?

Leah: As I pointed out, Snape has no way of knowing beforehand that 
the questions are going to humiliate Harry.  For all Snape knows, 
Harry could be a child exactly like Hermione, who is going to know 
the answer to question one immediately.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am sorry I find this reason to be funny. So, if Harry does not 
know
> answers he is not a Dark Lord and Vice versa?

Leah: No, of course not. But a child who knows a lot about magic, 
who is interesting himself in magic he doesn't necessarily need to 
know at this stage, who shows himself to be very bright AND has 
apparently already defeated one Dark Lord, would bear a lot of 
watching.  It doesn't of course mean Harry would be dark, it's just 
something to keep an eye on. 

> 
> Or he took them in, after reading books for fun, just not every
> little detail.

Leah: Yes, very probably. I'm not criticising Harry here, I'm saying 
that Harry knowing the answers to the questions would tell Snape one 
thing about him and his not knowing might indicate other things.  In 
a 
way it's like a normal classroom.  No teacher asks a question 
because they need to know what a bezoar does or what the square root 
of 25 is.  They ask because what a child might or might not answer 
in different circumstances tells them about the child and its 
learning and personality.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> If anybody else would have known it, I would agree. Hermione to me
> really is exception, we do know that she reads everything indeed,
> nobody else seems to know, don't they?

Leah: I think they probably do, but that's unimportant as I've said 
above.  This is the point I'm trying to make: One child in the 
class, who has no previous wizarding experience, does immediately 
know all the answers to the questions. That tells us something about 
Hermione. If Harry knew the answers to the questions, that would 
indicate to us and to Snape that Harry is also that sort of child. 
He isn't. There's nothing good or bad in it as far as I am 
concerned, it is a fact to know about Harry.  

> Alla:
> 
> I fully believe that Snape majorly contributed to Harry NOT doing
> well academincally in Potions by killing his interest forever on 
this
> lesson. And he still gets such a good grade on OWLS. YAY Harry.

Leah: I agree with you on the killing of interest. But I don't tbink 
Harry did well in his Potions OWL because he taught himself the 
subject, so clearly he did learn from Snape.
> 
> 
> Leah:
> > Unfortunately, Harry doesn't know the answers and makes matters
> worse
> > by cheeking Snape. We know this is how Harry copes with the
> Dursleys,
> > but Snape doesn't. It's just cheek and raises the James factor in
> > Snape's eyes. From then on, it's downhill all the way. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, it is not just cheek, in my opinion it is not cheek at all. I
> read it as Harry sincerely answering Snape that Hermione knows.

Leah: Hermione has put her hand up to every question.By this stage 
she is standing up waving her hand in desperation to show she's not 
a dunderhead.  Unless Harry believes Snape to be blind and deaf, 
Harry must understand that Snape knows Hermione knows the 
answers.  "Why don't you try her?" is cheek pure and simple. How do 
you think Minerva would have reacted?  The class laugh so they too 
can see that it is cheek.       
> 
> Leah:
> <SNIP>
> >There is a deliberate Harry filter
> > in the presentation of Snape.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not in what narrator describes in my opinion, I do not believe
> anything on first lesson is described incorrectly facts wise.
> 
Leah: Harry describes what happens. It is factually accurate that 
Snape questions Harry, but it is presented to us from Harry's POV
and therefore the Harry filter.  Harry later factually reports 
various observations on Snape and the filter on this is that Snape 
is trying to steal the Stone, kill Harry etc.

> Leah:
> >And yes, Snape is an adult, but he is,
> > like Sirius, a damaged and emotionally retarded adult, who gets
> > absolutely no teaching support from his headmaster.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Funny, for years I thought Snape gets more teaching support from 
his
> Headmaster than he ever deserves. Because I thought Dumbledore
> deliberately turns blind eye on what he does to Harry and Neville,
> and Hermione.
> 
> The only support I would have given Snape was to tell him to stop
> doing what he does to Harry or he will be kicked out of Hogwarts, 
but
> of course we know now that Dumbledore needed Snape and yes, before
> you ask I hold Dumbledore responsible too.

Leah: McGonagall is pretty nasty to Neville too. I don't think Harry 
is altogether the innocent victim here,Hermione neither),and I can't 
see that he's in anyway traumatised by Potions,  but Dumbledore 
certainly doesn't concern himself with what goes on in any 
classroom.  But Snape does go to Dumbledore at a time which must be 
very early in the first term (pre-Halloween at least)and let 
Dumbledore know that he has major problems in his relationship with 
Harry (and yes, it's a rant, but Dumbledore should be able to pick 
the bones out of it and assist). All Dumbledore does is tell Snape 
he's wrong in his assessment of Harry, give him another job to do, 
and go back to reading a magazine. Great management there, Albus, 
but of course Albus isn't managing a school, he's preparing to run a 
war.     


Leah