First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 185765

> Alla:
> 
> That depends Pippin on what exact meaning you put in "Snape 
> consciously wanted him to fail". 

Pippin:
I meant that Snape did not consciously want  Harry to fail at potions.
 I agree that better teachers are more versatile. But versatility does
not seem to be required of any Hogwarts teachers. 

Alla:
 If  you mean that Snape wanted Harry to  succeed to the full of his 
potential, to be a  successful student instead of somebody who covers
 in fear when he sees Snape, then no, we cannot agree on that.

Pippin:
Can you please point me to an example of Harry cowering in fear when
he sees Snape? Aside from when Harry   is rule-breaking and
knows he will be punished, that is, or when he knows he is going to be
chewed out for poor work. He would be afraid of  any teacher in that
position. But even when he thinks Snape is trying to kill him, he's
never afraid of Snape on sight. 

I think we can agree McGonagall is a better teacher than Snape. But
even McGonagall doesn't seem to grasp the relationship between
Neville's lack of confidence and her teaching methods. I think that is
one of those truths that Dumbledore can't make people see. 

> Pippin:
> As Dumbledore says, he has no power to make men see the truth.
> Threatening Snape will not make Snape see Harry any differently.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, but it can make Snape **behave** differently towards Harry even 
> if his feelings remain the same.  I remain absolutely convinced that
Snape would vastly prefer being in Hogwarts to NOT being in Hogwarts, 
> IMO of course.

Pippin:

Definitely IYO ;) 

*My* Snape has placed himself at Dumbledore's disposal to lie, spy,
teach potions to dunderheads, protect the son of a man he hated, and
await the return of a man-monster who is just as merciless to his
followers as he is to his enemies. If, after ten or eleven years,
Dumbledore now feels he can protect Harry without Snape's help, why
would Snape be inclined to argue with him? On Dumbledore's head be it,
if Lily's son should die. 

What is Snape supposed to get out of being at Hogwarts? He tells Bella
he'd rather be there than in Azkaban. Hardly a ringing endorsement. He
could find another way to stay out of jail if he had to, IMO. Crabbe
and Goyle Sr managed after all. And they're not very bright. As for
getting another job, there are circles in which a negative reference
from Dumbledore is a plus.

My sense is that you see Dumbledore as operating in a sort of feudal
system, in which each person is supposed to protect those beneath, and
receive the protection of those above. If Snape is not doing a proper
job of protecting Harry, he should forfeit Dumbledore's protection
himself. Is that right?

But the way I see it, Dumbledore divides the world into the protected,
and those who are pledged to help him protect. Those who provide
protection to others do not expect to get it themselves. On the contrary.


> Alla:
> 
> Well, this does not earn Dumbledore any  brownie points with me and,
I find it irrelevant, since Snape does not humiliate any 
> overconfident person on that first lesson, he humiliates eleven year
 old who has very little clue about new world he arrived in. Not that
 I think again that had Harry had more confidence, he would have 
> deserved that humiliation.

Pippin:
Dumbledore reprimanded eleven year old orphan Tom  for cheek, made him
cower in fear, accused him of mischief against his fellows and forced
him to undergo a humiliating punishment -- and Tom knew even less
about the WW than Harry did. He hadn't even *started* his first day. 

There's no leniency for beginners. Once you accept enrollment at
Hogwarts, you are subject to its rules and policies. Period. 

I am not discussing here whether the Hogwarts educational philosophy
is a good one, just whether or not Snape is in compliance with it. 
As far as telling Snape he must punish Harry appropriately, IMO Snape
was doing that, given what Hogwarts defines as appropriate and 
Snape's limited perception of Harry's behavior. Taking two points is
hardly draconian. 

Dumbledore does interfere when he thinks Harry might be punished
excessively. He could tell Snape he is not to punish Harry at all,
certainly. But that's treating Harry like a pampered prince.


 
> Pippin:
> In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
> public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
> take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or
Hermione, who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless course
of  revenge.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Harry has Snape to thank for that as well? 
> 

Pippin:

Not intentionally, no. But Dumbledore certainly realized that Harry
would need to be prepared. JKR doesn't treat the matter of Harry's
fan/hate mail consistently -- but IMO we are supposed to grasp that
Dumbledore knows  the WW's tabloid culture doesn't go easy on kids
and that Harry is going to face mass hostility from  adults
who are being manipulated by his enemies. 

Harry had faced humiliations on the playground in the Muggle world,
but he was used to being ignored by  adults  in general. He could
cheek the Dursleys with impunity as long as he made his insults too
clever for them to work out.  But that didn't work with Snape. Nor
would it have worked with Rita. He was going to have to develop some
other coping strategies.

As for Hermione, there's no doubt her revenge made her feel better.
Viewed that way, it was a success. But if she hadn't taken Rita's
attacks personally, she wouldn't have felt bad in the first
place. Was it worth the risk of blackmail just for that? Hermione
herself didn't think so. 

Her stated aim was to see if she could teach Rita not to tell horrible
lies. That didn't work. OTOH, she did keep Rita from exposing the
Ministry's cover-up of Voldemort's return until it was well
established. Oops. 

Amending Hermione's mistake gave  Rita  the biggest story of her
career so far. Of course she'd rather have been paid for it -- but 
her supposed "in" with Harry Potter paid off when it came time to sell
"The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore" so it looks like she came out
even.

Hermione got her story-book revenge, but one of the themes of canon,
IMO, is that what works in story-books does not work so well in the
real world, even a fictional one. 

Pippin