First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185767

Alla:
> If you mean that Snape wanted Harry to succeed to the full of his 
> potential, to be a successful student instead of somebody who covers
>  in fear when he sees Snape, then no, we cannot agree on that.
> 
> Pippin:
> Can you please point me to an example of Harry cowering in fear when
> he sees Snape? <SNIP>

Alla:

No, but I believe that Snape's bullying was to produce that effect, 
that this is something Snape would have dearly liked to see. Again, 
IMO.

Pippin:
Aside from when Harry   is rule-breaking and
> knows he will be punished, that is, or when he knows he is going to 
be
> chewed out for poor work. He would be afraid of  any teacher in that
> position. But even when he thinks Snape is trying to kill him, he's
> never afraid of Snape on sight. 

Alla:

It did not feel to me that Harry was feeling very brave when he was 
going to Snape for Occlumency lessons and he did not break any rules 
yet. I think this was a cumulative effect of all previous five years.

Pippin:
> I think we can agree McGonagall is a better teacher than Snape. But
> even McGonagall doesn't seem to grasp the relationship between
> Neville's lack of confidence and her teaching methods. I think that 
is
> one of those truths that Dumbledore can't make people see. 

Alla:

Yes, Mcgonagall is centuries ahead than Snape to me in that 
department, she is flexible enough to change her opinion of Neville, 
contrary to Snape's opinion about Harry.
 
> Pippin:
> 
> Definitely IYO ;) 
> 
> *My* Snape has placed himself at Dumbledore's disposal to lie, spy,
> teach potions to dunderheads, protect the son of a man he hated, and
> await the return of a man-monster who is just as merciless to his
> followers as he is to his enemies. If, after ten or eleven years,
> Dumbledore now feels he can protect Harry without Snape's help, why
> would Snape be inclined to argue with him? On Dumbledore's head be 
it,
> if Lily's son should die. 

Alla:

LOL. You seriously think that Snape would have wanted to be in 
Azkaban?

I would think he would not have lasted very long there, but of course 
just speculating.

Pippin: 
> What is Snape supposed to get out of being at Hogwarts? He tells 
Bella
> he'd rather be there than in Azkaban. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Alla:

Exactly, rather here than in Azkaban, with dementors.

Pippin:
>He
> could find another way to stay out of jail if he had to, IMO. Crabbe
> and Goyle Sr managed after all. And they're not very bright. As for
> getting another job, there are circles in which a negative reference
> from Dumbledore is a plus.

Alla:

Which way that would be?

Pippin:
> My sense is that you see Dumbledore as operating in a sort of feudal
> system, in which each person is supposed to protect those beneath, 
and
> receive the protection of those above. If Snape is not doing a 
proper
> job of protecting Harry, he should forfeit Dumbledore's protection
> himself. Is that right?

Alla:

Not quite, only because Dumbledore wears too many hats IMO. I see 
Dumbledore as Headmaster of the school who should fire teacher who 
IMO abuses his authority over the students (some students), but of 
course since Dumbledore also a leader of Order of Phoenix, we have 
all that additional stuff.

Pippin: 
> But the way I see it, Dumbledore divides the world into the 
protected,
> and those who are pledged to help him protect. Those who provide
> protection to others do not expect to get it themselves. On the 
contrary.

Alla:

Too bad that he does not think that way of teachers and students then 
IMO.
 
> Pippin:
> Dumbledore reprimanded eleven year old orphan Tom  for cheek, made 
him
> cower in fear, accused him of mischief against his fellows and 
forced
> him to undergo a humiliating punishment -- and Tom knew even less
> about the WW than Harry did. He hadn't even *started* his first 
day. <SNIP>

Alla:

And we all know how well Tom turned out of course. Again, no brownies 
for Dumbledore from me I am afraid.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
> I am not discussing here whether the Hogwarts educational philosophy
> is a good one, just whether or not Snape is in compliance with it. 
> As far as telling Snape he must punish Harry appropriately, IMO 
Snape
> was doing that, given what Hogwarts defines as appropriate and 
> Snape's limited perception of Harry's behavior. Taking two points is
> hardly draconian. 

Alla:

I think Hogwarts' philosophy can use **plenty** of improvement, but 
till I see another teacher hating student on sight because that 
teacher has a history with student's parents (my interpretation of 
course), I think I will disagree that Snape is in compliance with it.

We see Minerva, we see Lupin, we see Flitwick. Why measure Hogwarts 
by Binns and Trelawney? I do not think Snape's attitudes are nowhere 
near the best teachers.

 
>> Pippin:
> 
> Not intentionally, no. But Dumbledore certainly realized that Harry
> would need to be prepared. JKR doesn't treat the matter of Harry's
> fan/hate mail consistently -- but IMO we are supposed to grasp that
> Dumbledore knows  the WW's tabloid culture doesn't go easy on kids
> and that Harry is going to face mass hostility from  adults
> who are being manipulated by his enemies. <SNIP>

Alla:

My opinion that it is a big stretch that Snape's bullying was 
designed to prepare Harry to deal with his fans, I will leave it at 
that.

Montavilla47:
<HUGE SNIP>
A simple letter of explanation from Dumbledore might have
helped Harry immensely in seeing the value of the lessons
(something Lupin didn't need to do in PoA). I'd say the person
who really let Harry down in the Occlumency lessons was
Dumbledore. <SNIP>

Alla:

I think it is a perfect solution actually, if Dumbledore was so 
afraid of coming face to face with Harry, just writes him a freaking 
letter, for goodness sake. So no argument from me, Dumbledore did let 
Harry down big time IMO. However, I am not willing to let Snape off 
the hook either.

JMO,

Alla