First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 185802

SSSusan earlier:
> Perhaps a corner would have been turned and Harry would've learned
> that, if he tried hard enough and shut up, they could tolerate one
> another. But no, the vial "slips," Snape issues that "oops," and in
> an instant, additional damage has been done to their already damaged
> relationship.

Montavilla47:
> Of course I agree that what Snape did was petty, childish, and 
> completely unprofessional. See above. But your point (or Jkoney's) 
> was that Snape's "style" did not work with Harry as a student and 
> so Snape should have adapted his style. My point was that, personal 
> relationship aside, Harry responded as well to Snape's harsh 
> methods of teaching as well as he did to teachers that he 
> considered friendlier, more fair, and plain old nicer. The proof 
> was in the test results on his O.W.L.s.
>
> If Snape's style as a teacher was that damaging, then Harry would
> not have gotten an E on his test--it wasn't like he was secretly
> leading a Potions study group that year.

SSSusan:
I actually disagree that the E is proof of Snape's teaching ability 
or of a decent match of his teaching style to Harry's learning 
style.  My original point was that I don't believe Harry learned to 
the best of his ability and that a *part* of the reason why, imo, was 
Snape's treatment of him.  

A lot of people think that that "E" Harry received was actually 
indicative of how much Harry *could* do with Potions if he were not 
constantly under the gun with Snape.  "E" = Exceeds Expectations, and 
Harry certainly did exceed his, and in receiving it, made people 
wonder if he was actually capable of much more, could he get past his 
relationship with his Potions master.


SSSusan earlier:
> I've heard the arguments, but I'll never be convinced Snape did not
> intentionally drop the vial, and I believe JKR wrote it the way she
> did for us to receive the implication that he did so. That was
> exceptionally childish and, as you said, it was unprofessional. It
> wiped out any chance of turning things around. So, see, Harry tried
> something different (heh – actually concentrating, working hard, not
> arguing), but Snape couldn't rise to the same level and, imo, made
> the chasm even greater by how he treated Harry. WORSE than square
> one, then.

Montavilla47:
> I'd like to think that Snape didn't--and he was only being somewhat
> petty, instead of completely petty at that moment. But I agree that
> it can go either way and I'm not even going to try to argue that it
> doesn't.
>
> But I'm not sure why Snape would have any interest in a relationship
> with Harry at that point. The Occlumency lessons were over. He had
> only to endure a few more weeks and Harry would be out of his life
> forever--except for that part about protecting Harry. And I'm sure
> Snape thought he could do that whether they were friendly or not--
> since he'd been doing it for four years without them ever being
> friendly. It wasn't like Harry was ever going to thank him or 
> anything.

SSSusan:
Sorry, I should probably not have used the word "relationship" 
there.  I didn't mean to imply a friendship or some special bond 
between the two.  I was intending to refer to the teacher-student 
relationship.   And, see, I think that by this point – after DD had 
insisted that Snape teach Harry Occlumency, after Snape received the 
insights he did from those aborted sessions about just how dangerous 
things were becoming in the Harry-Voldemort `relationship' [ack, 
can't find a better word!], then, again, I would think that Snape 
would be really GETTING it that he has to set aside his own personal 
feelings and petty annoyances and, for the good of the cause, work 
with Harry.  Less on potions, probably, and more just not demeaning 
the kid every chance he gets, not berating and insulting him.  

That 5th year, to me, was the moment – close to the final chance for 
the two of them to get over their past history and start focusing on 
how to prepare for another VW.  That they both couldn't... that Snape 
not only couldn't continue the Occlumency lessons but also took, imo, 
his anger back into the classroom with him with the vial, absolutely 
sealed it. :(


Montavilla47:
> I apologize again. I worded that wrong. I should have said "if WE 
> are going to condemn" rather than "If YOU are going to condemn," 
> because that wasn't actually directed at you. I was trying to 
> explain why I think it's important to balance Snape's obvious 
> faults as a teacher with the things he actually managed to 
> accomplish.

SSSusan:
Thanks for explaining.  I appreciate that. 


SSSusan earlier:
> It would seem to me quite reasonable to say that the *initial*
> problems here began with Snape, that he failed in the bearing of 
> more of the burden, that he was largely to blame for establishing a
> pattern with Harry that Harry would then do his own part to
> exacerbate and continue. Snape behaved poorly and did not give the
> kid a chance.

Montavilla47:
> I agree that Snape initiated the antagonism. But I'm not sure he
> didn't give Harry a chance. I think the questions he asked may
> have been (in his mind) a chance for Harry to show him... something.
> I'm not at all sure what he was looking for. Maybe an enthusiasm
> like Lily had, maybe an eagerness to learn. But it certainly wasn't
> Harry's fault that he didn't get it.
>
> And, of course, any child deserves more than one chance to make
> a good impression.

SSSusan:
Exactly!!  It's your last comment which resonates with me.  If Snape 
*was* checking things out, seeing what the kid knew or looking for 
enthusiasm, maybe seeing if Harry was a cocky little celebrity prat, 
then it should have been pretty apparent from the encounter that 
Harry had no clue about the things Snape asked him.  Poor Harry!  
Unless you're Hermione, lol, how do you show enthusiasm eagerness 
when you're totally blindsided? and being grilled by someone who's 
shooting daggers at you?  

Snape, imo, should have seen that his interrogation (for that's how 
it appeared to me) didn't "work" and the kid DID deserve another 
chance.  ANY kid that first day – particularly one from a Muggle 
home – would have deserved that much.


SSSusan earlier:
> Still, while I understand what's been presented about Snape not 
> fully knowing how vital it was that Harry learn how to defend 
> himself against Voldemort, I still maintain that by 2nd or 3rd 
> year, he knew the kids WAS in danger and would likely continue to 
> be in danger, that he *was* tied up with Voldemort and a prophecy 
> and all of that stuff in such a way that it really would be 
> important for the White Hat Cause to help ensure this kid learned 
> everything he could, in the classroom and in life. (That should NOT 
> have Snape's burden alone, but let's face it, Snape was gifted, 
> talented, and in a unique position as an ex-DE and a person in 
> Voldy's inner circle to be especially useful this way.)

Montavilla47:
> You may have hit upon something that has remained a puzzle for
> me for years--why Snape kept applying for that D.A.D.A. position.
> Snape was quite successful at teaching potions (based on the number
> of students who received Os on their O.W.L.s). Why would he keep
> applying for the D.A.D.A. job when Dumbledore continued to turn
> him down for it?
>
> As a Potions teacher, Snape was charged with preparing Harry to
> make potions. How this was going to help Harry fulfill that 
> prophecy, I don't know. Unless he and Voldemort decided to compete 
> in a Potion-Off.
>
> But honestly, I don't think Snape was thinking about Harry actually
> fighting Voldemort until it became obvious (from GoF onwards), that
> Voldemort was back. I think (and it's just my opinion) that Snape
> would have preferred to keep Harry in a little box, if he could.

SSSusan:
Hee, yes, I agree that teaching him potions wasn't likely to be TOO 
directly significant in fending off Voldemort.  I think, though, that 
it was always likely that Snape could be, WOULD be able to teach 
Harry things that would be helpful in other ways – the stuff they 
began to get to with Occlumency.  But by then, the teacher-student 
relationship was really damaged, and much of that can be traced back, 
imo, to the first lesson, the first year, the way Snape treated him 
so angrily, with such hatred, which *naturally* made Harry react in 
kind.


Montavilla:
> I'm probably wrong about this, but my suspicion is that Snape
> kept pushing the "expell Harry" idea because he thought Harry
> would be safer at the Dursleys--and he didn't give a darn whether
> or not Harry was *happy* there. He never promised to ensure
> Harry's happiness--only his safety.
>
> Of course, in OotP, it became evident that the protections
> placed on the Dursley house could not protect Harry and he
> was better off at Hogwarts. And, oddly, Snape never suggests
> once in OotP that Harry ought to be expelled.

SSSusan:
An interesting comment!  I hadn't thought about this possibility at 
all.  And I would love to hear more about whether people think Snape 
*would* have preferred to have kept Harry in a box, as it were.  

You're absolutely right that he never promised to try to keep or make 
Harry happy, only to protect him.  Truthfully, that's likely about 
all Severus Snape would have been capable of; it's just that I can't 
help but *wish* that he could have set aside the James & Lily stuff 
and *tried* to focus on Harry as himself, you know?  Not for 
friendship's sake, but for fairness's sake.  I think if Harry had 
been treated fairly – meaning, the same way all other students were – 
he'd have been more receptive to learning things from Snape, in class 
and out.  It's simple respect, really.  Snape had none for Harry, so 
Harry returned the favor.

Sorry, I'm digressing.  I really would like to know if others feel 
there's something to the idea that Snape would've liked to have just 
packed Harry up & sent him back to the Dursleys because he thought 
he'd be safer there.


Montavilla47:
> I understand what you are saying. Lupin certainly explained things 
> better in terms of what Dementors are, how they work, and what a 
> Patronus would do.
>
> But I'm not sure it's really fair to compare the two situations.
> Lupin didn't have the same constraints on him that Snape did.  It 
> wasn't like the Dementors could be spying in on the session in 
> order to pick up information that Dumbledore wanted kept secret.
>
> Also, let's face it. If you are going to compare Lupin and Snape
> as teachers, then Snape is always going to end up looking worse.
> He's just not as good a teacher as Lupin. I think that goes without
> saying.

SSSusan:
Heh, well, that *is* what I was saying.   Snape's not as good a 
teacher WITH HARRY and FOR HARRY as Lupin was.  (He might have been 
for Draco?)  That was key to the point I was making, so hence, I 
place some blame on Snape where others do not.  (And blame's maybe 
too strong a word; the whole thing's perhaps more accurately 
described as "a shame" more than "who's to blame," because once blame 
is in there, it becomes a battle of sides.)  


Montavilla47:
> I agree that it wasn't as good a match as Lupin's. Of course, my
> point wasn't that it was. My point was that *how* you learn is
> separate from *what* you learn. That Harry used different methods 
> to block Dementors and Legilimency than Snape advised using doesn't 
> mean that Snape's style was substandard. It simply meant that Harry 
> preferred alternate methods.

SSSusan:
Yes, and this is a good point.  If one gets the content, the "how" 
one got it isn't necessarily important.  Do you think Snape was aware 
of these alternate methods?  Do you think he should have explained 
the possibilities to Harry?  


SSSusan earlier:
> I tend to agree with Carol, although I still think that, while
> *liking* the teacher wasn't necessarily going to be the big factor 
> in whether Harry learned well, big-time *disliking* turned out to 
> be a big factor. The only professor he hated was Snape, and I 
> believe we saw that seriously interfere with his interest in 
> learning, and Snape's reciprocal hatred was a significant cause for 
> that as well.

Montavilla47:
> Harry also hated Umbridge. He disliked Trelawney intensely and
> disliked Binns in a lukewarm fashion. He also disliked Lockhart.
> I don't think Harry dislike of Snape interfered at all in his 
> interest in learning Potions. He never had an interest in learning 
> Potions.  It wasn't like Harry was eagerly drinking in his Potions 
> textbook before his first class--because if he had, he might have 
> been able to answer at least one of the questions Snape posed.


SSSusan:
Thanks for the reminder about Umbridge -- of course he hated her, 
too!  I'm not sure he disliked Trelawney intensely so much as he 
disliked the subject intensely.  

I'm not sure it's fair to say you can tell Harry didn't have any 
interest in potions, though, based upon his lack of drinking in his 
textbook before his first class.  We have no indication that he was 
drinking in *any* textbook before *any* class, do we?

I guess I'd ask, do we know that he never had any interest in 
potions?  Could it be that any interest he might have had was quashed 
early on by the way he was treated in that class?  I can't know that, 
of course, but it seems a distinct possibility.

We do know that DADA mattered very much to Harry and, you're right, 
in that subject, when he had a crappy teacher or one he despised, he 
found a way outside of class to continue to work on the subject.  He 
saw the relevance of the subject to his own life much more than he 
did Potions.

You know what I think this comes down to for me in a big way – and 
this may be wholly unfair of me [I'm sure folks will let me know ;)] 
– is that I wanted Snape to teach Harry what he knew about Voldemort, 
what he knew about how to fight Voldemort.  When Harry needed to know 
certain things – Patronus charm [tho he didn't know he needed to know 
it as much as he did need to, and benefited from it more than he knew 
he would], Occlumency, dueling skills – I wanted him to be able to 
get answers to his questions, to be given instructions he could learn 
from.  Snape was Harry's potions master, but we readers all knew that 
he, DD & perhaps Moody & Lupin were the ones who could give the kids 
the *real* scoop, could help equip them with the real skills they 
were going to need.  

Harry was going to need them more than anyone, and it just kills me 
that, at that crucial moment in 5th year, when Harry needed to learn 
a vital skill, when they could have begun to actually work together 
for something that mattered more than an OWL score or a Potions 
grade, they couldn't get past their ugly, hate-filled, prejudicial 
past.  

So when I talk about Snape failing as a teacher, I *do* mean in the 
classroom – in the early years when he was so unfair & unreasonable – 
but I also mean when the time came for him to share his expertise and 
be that kind of a "life & death" teacher, it was doomed.  Harry's 
expectations & unwillingness factored heavily, but those were 
influenced by the way Snape had always treated him as a teacher in 
the classroom, you know?  It's like a viscious circle there.  If only 
X hadn't happened, then Y would have been possible.  And that's why, 
even though Harry carries a lot of the blame for Occlumency, if only 
Snape hadn't been such an ass from the get-go and had been the kind 
of teacher who just taught fairly, there might have been a shot for 
Occlumency.  IMHO, of course.

SSSusan, 
who wants to thank Montavilla for taking the time to respond, 'cause 
I feel like I understand her position much better :)