First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 185809

Montavilla47:

I'm going to snipping a lot of this post, because I think we're in
agreement most of the time.  Unfortunately, the part I'm not 
snipping is where we disagree.  Alas!

> SSSusan:
> I actually disagree that the E is proof of Snape's teaching ability 
> or of a decent match of his teaching style to Harry's learning 
> style.  My original point was that I don't believe Harry learned to 
> the best of his ability and that a *part* of the reason why, imo, was 
> Snape's treatment of him.  
> 
> A lot of people think that that "E" Harry received was actually 
> indicative of how much Harry *could* do with Potions if he were not 
> constantly under the gun with Snape.  "E" = Exceeds Expectations, and 
> Harry certainly did exceed his, and in receiving it, made people 
> wonder if he was actually capable of much more, could he get past his 
> relationship with his Potions master.

Montavilla47:
Perhaps, but I tend to doubt it.  I went over the reasons, but I'll go 
over them again quickly.

In order for someone to get an O in their O.W.L.s, they would need
to be extremely bright and diligent (as Hermione is in all her classes),
or extremely motivated and with natural aptitude (as Harry was in 
D.A.D.A.)  

We don't see Harry having any particular affinity for Potions.  He 
doesn't, for example, single out Potions as an interesting subject
when he peruses his books between purchasing them and going to
Hogwarts.  

Now, if Snape had been a different type of teacher, he might have
inspired Harry to like Potions, despite Harry not really caring about 
the subject--but there is no teacher that does that for Harry in 
any of his subjects.  Harry likes Lupin's classes, but it's seeing a
specific purpose in his life that inspires Harry to excel--like needing
to ward off Dementors.

And Snape isn't, as a teacher, interested in inspiring all of his
students.  He's interested in teaching them what to do, challenging
them to keep up with his high standards, and in spending his 
efforts in N.E.W.T.s on only the very best.

(Interestingly, he's not like that about D.A.D.A.  When he gets
the D.A.D.A., he's more interested in making sure that *every*
pupil excels, even holding remedial classes for those, like 
Crabbe and Goyle, who don't pass their O.W.L.s.)


> SSSusan:
> Hee, yes, I agree that teaching him potions wasn't likely to be TOO 
> directly significant in fending off Voldemort.  I think, though, that 
> it was always likely that Snape could be, WOULD be able to teach 
> Harry things that would be helpful in other ways – the stuff they 
> began to get to with Occlumency.  But by then, the teacher-student 
> relationship was really damaged, and much of that can be traced back, 
> imo, to the first lesson, the first year, the way Snape treated him 
> so angrily, with such hatred, which *naturally* made Harry react in 
> kind.

Montavilla47:
Sorry to interrupt here, but I went back and read the relevant passage
and I'm not seeing a lot of anger or hatred in that first lesson.  Snape
is being demanding, yes.  But it doesn't seem that personal.

It really reads to me the way that a stern, demanding teacher might
treat any random student--or any random student that the Wizarding
world was treating like a demi-god.  Yes, he sneers at Harry being
a "celebrity." But a teacher asking a student questions--even 
ones he can't answer--is a legitimate teaching technique.  And
taking a point (one whole point!) is not exactly dumping all your
anti-James baggage on the boy.  Harry was being cheeky, after all.

(You'd think that would endear Harry to Snape, rather than turn
him off, since Lily was the cheeky one.  Now, Harry flipping Snape
over backwards and pantsing him would incite the James hate.)

As for why Snape takes another point from Harry for Neville's
accident, I have no explanation.  It's unfair, but again, I really 
doubt that that would cause Harry to turn away from Potions if 
he cared about the subject to the extent that he have earned an 
O in O.W.L.s otherwise.

> Montavilla47:
> > I agree that it wasn't as good a match as Lupin's. Of course, my
> > point wasn't that it was. My point was that *how* you learn is
> > separate from *what* you learn. That Harry used different methods 
> > to block Dementors and Legilimency than Snape advised using doesn't 
> > mean that Snape's style was substandard. It simply meant that Harry 
> > preferred alternate methods.
> 
> SSSusan:
> Yes, and this is a good point.  If one gets the content, the "how" 
> one got it isn't necessarily important.  Do you think Snape was aware 
> of these alternate methods?  Do you think he should have explained 
> the possibilities to Harry?  

Montavilla47:
I think he was aware that Harry already knew about the Patronus spell,
so, Snape was actually presenting the alternative method in D.A.D.A.

As for the alternative method in Occlumency--I've thought a lot about
Occlumency and how it *might* work.  But, unfortunately, it's not 
really developed in canon.  Since Harry's alternative method of 
Occlumency is grounded in feeling grief, I'm not sure how Snape
would have taught that to Harry (especially since Snape seems 
to think that grief makes you vulnerable).  

I suppose Snape might have tried killing Dobby in front of Harry.  That
might have worked.

> SSSusan:
> You know what I think this comes down to for me in a big way – and 
> this may be wholly unfair of me [I'm sure folks will let me know ;)] 
> – is that I wanted Snape to teach Harry what he knew about Voldemort, 
> what he knew about how to fight Voldemort.  When Harry needed to know 
> certain things – Patronus charm [tho he didn't know he needed to know 
> it as much as he did need to, and benefited from it more than he knew 
> he would], Occlumency, dueling skills – I wanted him to be able to 
> get answers to his questions, to be given instructions he could learn 
> from.  Snape was Harry's potions master, but we readers all knew that 
> he, DD & perhaps Moody & Lupin were the ones who could give the kids 
> the *real* scoop, could help equip them with the real skills they 
> were going to need.  

Montavilla47:
I agree.  I would have liked to have seen that, too.  But here I 
blame Dumbledore (or JKR).  JKR was writing mysteries, so she
couldn't have Harry actually form a relationship with someone who
could give Harry answers.  Snape had a strong, plausible reason (his 
hatred of James) to keep away from Harry.  Moody wasn't really
the kind of person who would seek out companionship from a kid 
and he really barely interacted with Harry.  

Lupin's a different case.  He knew that Harry needed mentoring, he
liked Harry, and he had a lot knowledge that would have been helpful
to Harry.  

Yet, he doesn't stay in touch.  He never writes to Harry (and Harry
never writes to him with any questions).  He declares that he'll
go to Hogwarts personally to demand that Snape continue the 
Occlumency lessons and never does.   Even when he tries to make
himself available to Harry (in DH), Harry rejects him and calls him
a coward.

But, if Harry had someone who could actually answer his questions,
then the books would have been a lot shorter.