First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 185811

SSSusan wrote:
> <snip> For once Harry determined he'd better really focus and get
the potion right.  He buckled down and he did so.  Even if Snape was
incapable of praising or acknowledging the effort, he could have just
accepted the potion and gone on without comment.  
> 
> Perhaps a corner would have been turned and Harry would've learned
that, if he tried hard enough and shut up, they could tolerate one 
another.  But no, the vial "slips," Snape issues that "oops," and in 
an instant, additional damage has been done to their already damaged 
> relationship.  
> 
> I've heard the arguments, but I'll never be convinced Snape did not
 intentionally drop the vial, and I believe JKR wrote it the way she
did for us to receive the implication that he did so.  That was 
exceptionally childish and, as you said, it was unprofessional.  It 
wiped out any chance of turning things around.  So, see, Harry tried 
something different (heh – actually concentrating, working hard, not
arguing), but Snape couldn't rise to the same level and, imo, made the
chasm even greater by how he treated Harry.  WORSE than square one, then.
> 

Carol responds:
But Harry placed the potion on the desk and turned his back. He didn't
see what happened, so the narrator can't report it. But there's no
indication that Snape was anywhere near the potion, and Hermione would
certainly have said something if she had seen him point his wand at
it. (Had she not Vanished Harry's remaining potion, the broken vial
would not have mattered, and surely she would have defended herself by
saying that Harry was angry with the wrong person if Snape had broken
the vial.)

I agree that the "Whoops!" was unprofessional, as was Snape's obvious
glee at Harry's accident, and I agree that his conduct further damaged
their relationship. (He was understandably angry that Harry had
violated his privacy by entering the Pensieve, but Harry might have
regretted his own behavior had Snape not acted as he did. Snape didn't
need to break the vial to make matters worse, nor do I think he did.
The "whoops!" and the zero were quite sufficient.)

I don't think, however, that the description of the incident indicates
that Snape *caused* the accident to Harry's potion. IMO, he merely
gloated because Harry had somehow placed it too hastily on the desk,
causing it to slip to the floor, the kind of accident that has
happened to me many times when I was in a hurry.

Harry never accuses Snape of dropping the potion or magically causing
it to slip. He's only angry over the zero (and angry with Hermione for
vanishing the rest of the potion).

Again, IMO, the timing is what matters. Snape is exceptionally angry
at Harry, Harry has for once made an effort in his class, and Hermione
chooses to "help" Harry by cleaning up. Put all those things together
with Harry's hurrying to put his potion on the desk, and you've got a
minor disaster--a minor triumph for Snape but a major blow to what
could have been an improvement in their relationship. The problem,
IMO, is that Snape can't conceive of Harry's actually empathizing with
him and seeing young Severus's side as opposed to James's.

*If only* those things hadn't happened, but they did, with both Snape
and Harry storing up reasons to hate or distrust the other. The sad
irony is that Harry's glimpse of Snape's worst memory could have led
to a greater understanding between them, but that moment of petty
vindictiveness shattered that possibility along with the vial of
potion. There's no need for Snape to have dropped the vial or caused
it to drop for that shred of hope to be irrevocably destroyed.

SSSusan:
> I *don't* blame Snape entirely.  In fact, imo, the *first*
Occlumency lesson was Snape's shining moment as a teacher of Harry. 
While not patient by many people's standards, that was the most
patient I think we'd seen him; and while not totally forthcoming
(especially with explicit hints & suggestions), he did manage to
provide some answers to Harry.  I was hopeful at the start of that
lesson!  But, alas, due to a combination of Snape's & Harry's
behaviors, and, I'd allege, their history, it went downhill from
there. <snip>

Carol:

I agree. If only Harry hadn't wanted to have that dream (but JKR
needed him to believe Voldemort's vision). If only Harry hadn't
invaded the Pensieve (but JKR needed to show us Snape's worst memory).
If only Snape hadn't ended the lessons (but, again, JKR needed to have
Harry believe Voldemort's vision--and, in any case, the lessons either
weren't succeeding and a few more lessons would have made no
difference). On a sidenote, I think that Snape and Dumbledore gained
important information from the lessons--that Harry was seeing into
Voldemort's mind and was dreaming of the corridor. The lessons may
have been more valuable for them than they were for Harry.

Carol earlier:
> > Those things aside, I think that natural ability and enjoyment of
a subject are as important with regard to Harry's performance in at
least some classes as the teacher. Madam Hooch's teaching abilities
are irrelevant to his learning to fly. He excels at it
.He learns 
DADA, not because he has good teachers (with the exception of Lupin
and Snape,the DADA teachers range from mediocre to abysmal) but 
because he's highly motivated
. He's also motivated by the Prince's 
book. He likes doing well in Potions thanks to the improved 
instructions (and getting credit where credit is not due), and he 
also learns the spells almost effortlessly, motivated, it seems, by
curiosity and enjoyment (and, ironically, by affection for his friend,
the Prince). 
> 
> SSSusan:
> I tend to agree with Carol, although I still think that, while 
*liking* the teacher wasn't necessarily going to be the big factor in
 whether Harry learned well, big-time *disliking* turned out to be a 
big factor.  The only professor he hated was Snape, and I believe we
saw that seriously interfere with his interest in learning, and
Snape's reciprocal hatred was a significant cause for that as well.
> 
Carol responds:
He also hated Umbridge (in fact, he wasn't sure which of the two he
hated more). But since Umbridge had nothing to teach him (or anyone
else), his feelings didn't affect his performance in that class. (the
same is true to a lesser extent of Lockhart, whom he disliked but
didn't hate--he, too, had nothing to teach, so Harry's attitude had no
effect on what he learned. Still, though I think that Harry did best
in those subjects for which he was motivated. He did no better and no
worse in Snape's classes (or the Potions OWL) than in his other core
subjects, with the exception of DADA. He seems to have learned in
spite of himself--and in spite of Snape's methods. 

Carol, who likes Snape but feels that in some ways he was his own
worst enemy