First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 185813


> SSSusan:
> I actually disagree that the E is proof of Snape's teaching ability
or of a decent match of his teaching style to Harry's learning style.
 My original point was that I don't believe Harry learned to the best
of his ability and that a *part* of the reason why, imo, was Snape's
treatment of him.  
> 
> A lot of people think that that "E" Harry received was actually
indicative of how much Harry *could* do with Potions if he were not 
constantly under the gun with Snape.  "E" = Exceeds Expectations, and
Harry certainly did exceed his, and in receiving it, made people 
wonder if he was actually capable of much more, could he get past his
relationship with his Potions master. <snip>

Carol responds:
I think the E matches perfectly with the E's he receives in his other
core subjects (Transfiguration, Charms, and Herbology), all of them
taught by teachers that Harry likes and/or respects more than he does
Snape. In all of them, Harry sometimes goofs off or talks or fails to
pay attention, and if a teacher assigns an essay, he generally relies
more than is good for him on Hermione's help. (Ron is even worse, but
we're not discussing Ron.) I don't think that Harry has any particular
interest in or aptitude for any of those classes--though at least he
doesn't blow them off completely as he does Divination, which, in
Ron's words, "we were always going to fail." His attitude changes
briefly when he starts to get brilliant results in Potions thanks to
the HBP's book (which he at first resents and then, thanks to the
*magical* results of the first few directions, continues to pursue
with enthusiasm). Potions becomes a kind of adventure, not to mention
that he's receiving unmerited praise from Slughorn. But once Harry
hides his Potions book from Snape, he returns to his usual
above-average but by no means outstanding results. So, unlike his
mother, he doesn't seem to have any particular aptitude for Potions
even though, temporarily, he acquired an interest in it. I think it's
because skill at Potions requires a kind of exacting, scientific or
mathematical mindset, an interest in precision and experimentation
that Harry lacks. He likes action and excitement (including the
excitement of adding an ingredient and getting an instant result), not
intellectual investigation, analysis, and logic.  Hermione, who is
logical and follows directions well, is better at Potions than Harry
is (until he acquires the HBP's book), but the Prince aka Snape is a
Potions genius. Harry must have learned from Snape in spite of himself
to earn that E in Potions, but he never gets beyond that level on his
own. With Slughorn, minus the Prince's help, he's back to E level (if
that).

We also have the evidence of all those other students who received O's
 on their OWLs after learning from Snape--one Gryffindor (Hermione),
one Hufflepuff (Ernie), and (IIRC), four students each from Ravenclaw
and Slytherin. Clearly, not all students were uninspired by him.

SSSusan:
<snip>
> he never promised to try to keep or make Harry happy, only to
protect him.  Truthfully, that's likely about all Severus Snape would
have been capable of; it's just that I can't help but *wish* that he
could have set aside the James & Lily stuff and *tried* to focus on
Harry as himself, you know?  Not for friendship's sake, but for
fairness's sake.  I think if Harry had been treated fairly – meaning,
the same way all other students were – he'd have been more receptive
to learning things from Snape, in class and out.  It's simple respect,
really.  Snape had none for Harry, so Harry returned the favor.

Carol responds:
Well, sure, but if we hadn't had all the mutual misunderstandings,
we'd never have had the culmination of that misunderstanding and
hatred in Harry's desire to take revenge against Snape for the
"murder" of Dumbledore and the big revelation of Snape's real motives
and intentions in "the Prince's Tale" when it's too late to undo the
damage. (And JKR is also stacking the odds against her hero so that he
more or less has to go it alone, with help only or primarily from
friends his own age.)

But from Snape's perspective, treatinf Harry exactly like the other
students is exactly what he's doing. He says as much to Fudge in PoA,
and to Harry when he tells him that he doesn't take cheek from anyone,
not even the Chosen One. I'm sure that Harry's detentions with Snape
are no better and no worse than the detentions he assigns to other
people (to whom he probably also makes snide remarks, cf. his comment
to Ron about the boy too solid to Apparate a foot across a room). We
never see him interacting with Slytherins other than Draco even in the
classroom (other than sending them to the hospital wing) and not at
all with Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs (except for the ten-point
deductions from one student from each of those Houses for snogging at
the Yule Ball). Most of them are "dunderheads"; some of them are
rule-breakers, and he treats both sets accordingly. Ernie Macmillan,
who probably never broke a rule in his life and enjoys studying, likes
him just fine. Fred and George, who spend half their school lives in
detention, don't like him at all (and it's mutual).

With the exception of truly petty moments (like "Whoops!" and "I see
no difference"), and his understandable frustration with Neville's
half-dozen melted cauldrons, Snape probably does treat Harry and his
friends very much like he treats everyone else--unless Harry has just
invaded his Pensieve memories or, he thinks, just stolen ingredients
for Polyjuice Potion. I'm not saying that Snape doesn't actively
dislike Harry (despite dutifully watching over and protecting him).
But I think that, in Snape's mind, he really does treat the Boy who
Lived just like anyone else, playing down his celebrity ("See, kids?
He's just as ignorant as you are"), giving him detention or deducting
points when he deserves it, and expecting him to pay attention, follow
directions, and do his work just like everyone else. That he's not as
objective as he thinks he is is obvious to us, but not, I think, to him.

Carol, who thinks that, *for Snape*, Harry really is a mediocre,
arrogant rule-breaker just like his father