First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 185829

 
> Alla:
> 
> I still have no idea whatsoever, whom else in the books Snape 
> criticizes as much as Harry and Neville and we can throw Hermione in
 of course.

Pippin:
But my point is,  Snape doesn't have anything personal against Neville
or Hermione. We often speculated that he must, but it didn't turn out
that way. They just irritate him -- Neville by doing the worst work in
the class, and Hermione by being an insufferable know-it-all.

Harry irritates him too, and Harry knows it, he just can't understand
 *why*. IMO, Snape doesn't tolerate backtalk or mischief from any
student, but he's much more sensitive when it comes from Harry,
because Harry irritates him already.

I agree, Snape started out being irritated with Harry before Harry had
given him any reason. I am not holding Harry responsible for that,
just pointing out that by the time Snape and Dumbledore have their
conversation about the way Harry is being treated, Snape  had real
reasons to be irritated by the way Harry acts.


Alla:
Oh and of course I do not think Snape criticizes any of 
> the Slytherins in the classroom. 

Pippin:
"He swept around in his long black cloak, watching them weight dried
nettles and crush snake fangs, cricitizing almost everyone except
Malfoy, whom he seemed to like." Ps/SS ch 8.

"Almost everyone except Draco"  must include Slytherins. The narrator
doesn't give us any specific examples --  it's written in that 
plain-brown-wrapper style JKR loves. I suppose I should be glad that
she turned her hand to novels and not propaganda.
 
> > Pippin:
> > But Harry *is* arrogant, and Snape would have discovered that
> > very soon. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> In your opinion he is, in mine - not at all,

Pippin:
My opinion and JKR's. You don't have to agree with her opinion that
Harry is arrogant. But when she shows Snape referring to Harry's
arrogance, she means him to be reacting to something that is really
there, not a delusion. It is neither more nor less relevant than her
description of Snape as a sadistic teacher who abuses his power, or of
Dumbledore as the epitome of goodness.

I agree it is not arrogance to stand up to a bully. But it is arrogant
to be  shocked when he retaliates.

It is arrogance to disrespect one's teacher. If Harry got away with
that kind of thing at his Muggle school, I can only guess it was
because his teachers were intimidated after the wig-turning-blue
thing. Or maybe they suspected the Dursleys were abusive and didn't
want to get Harry in trouble at home.

If Zacharias Smith thinks that  Harry's methods are offensive, he has
every right to leave the class, or to complain of Harry to rightful
authority (another reason I don't like what Hermione did). But he
doesn't have the right to disrupt the class by challenging Harry.
Harry is there to teach, not to defend his methods. 


> Alla:
> 
> The crucial difference between what you seem to argue and my view is
that I would never put an equal burden for overlooking each other 
> fallings on eleven year old student and thirty six year old teacher,
 never ever. 

Pippin:
I am not putting any burden on Harry, except that he should not have
disrespected Snape in class. I am not saying that he should have been
able to concentrate on his work in spite of Snape's needling, or
anything like that. I wouldn't expect him to overlook the way he was
treated, any more than Snape could overlook the way he was treated by
James. 

As far as occlumency, JKR says that Harry had no aptitude for it, so
Snape's attitude cannot be the primary reason for Harry's failure. He
might have made a little more progress. But there's just no way he
could have become good enough at occlumency to block Voldemort. It'd
be like teaching a tone deaf person to sing grand opera. It would be a
purely miserable experience to go through with an unsympathetic
teacher, but a sympathetic teacher would still fail.

OTOH, if Harry actually were gifted at Occlumency, it might have toned
down Snape's hostility a bit. It does tone down, IMO, when he is
teaching DADA, where Harry is indeed gifted.

 
> Alla:
> 
> To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying
 that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is
 a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to 
treat him that way.

Pippin:
Normal was  the wrong word -- I should have said, commonplace. I
haven't met enough celebrities to know whether it's really rare to
meet one with the common touch. But people seem to think it is.
Certainly there are enough swell-headed celebrities in the WW that it
might be a shock to meet one that wasn't. 

Alla:
> But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the 
> teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero too?

Pippin:
After that teacher saves your life? Yeah, that is a bit, well,
arrogant, IMO. Even Hermione thinks it is a bit much that Harry won't
acknowledge the possibility. 

> Alla:
> 
> And who should have been trying harder to see it? Eleven years old
or  thirty six year old? Because yes, Harry praises his courage, etc
and  as JKR said, Harry forgives him, but Snape loathes him till the
very end.

Pippin:
An eleven year old has a right to wounds that are too deep for the
healing, but a thirty six year old does not? That is the part I don't
understand.

Pippin