First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 185835

> Alla:
> 
> I still have no idea whatsoever, whom else in the books Snape 
> criticizes as much as Harry and Neville and we can throw Hermione in 
> of course. Oh and of course I do not think Snape criticizes any of 
> the Slytherins in the classroom. So demeaning and critical may be 
> neutral for Snape ... as to Gryffindors that is, but of course that 
> standard does not apply to any Slytherins at all IMO. And Harry takes 
> the first place with the amount of demeaning IMO.

Montavilla47:
Well, of course it does.  This is Harry's story.  Maybe Snape is 
more horrible to, say, Terry Boot, and we never see it because 
Harry doesn't share Potions class with the Ravenclaws.  But what
we *do* see in that very first class, because it is in the book is that
Snape criticizes *everybody* but Malfoy.  That must include all
the Slytherins except for Malfoy.  

If Harry doesn't single out any of Snape's criticisms of the Slytherins,
then either they weren't memorably harsh, or they didn't matter much
to Harry or the story.  But either way, Snape does criticize everyone
but Malfoy.


> Pippin: 
> > I think that JKR is saying that supposing someone has the
> > characteristics assumed to be typical of their group is pretty 
> normal.
> >  And it's fair to assume there are typical tendencies in a group
> > that's self-selected -- birds of a feather do flock together, after
> > all. And it's natural that some tendencies are more appealing to
> > particular people than others.
> > 
> > But it's  awful   to be so intolerant of a particular
> > tendency that it keeps you from seeing the person who has it as any
> > good at all. And it can be equally dangerous to be so taken with an
> > attractive tendency that it masks everything that's bad.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying 
> that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is 
> a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to 
> treat him that way.
> 
> But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the 
> teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero too?
> 
> Is that what you are arguing JKR is saying? If it is correct, I can 
> only say, I hope she says nothing of the kind.

Montavilla47:
Not that Pippin needs any help from me to argue a point, but I think 
you are misunderstanding.  You're pushing things to an extreme, which
is something that we all tend to do--and which SSSusan rightly called
me out for.

Nobody is saying that Harry is "bad" for having his reaction to Snape's
behavior in the first class.  Not even me.  What I am saying is that I 
think that Snape's behavior is not entirely based on hatred of James
and that it isn't even beyond the norm for a strict, demanding teacher.

Nor is anybody saying that Snape (or any teacher) ought to be basing
their impression of a child based on a single incident--or from any
experiences they had with their parents.   Although, I suspect that in 
the real world, many a teacher will have their perspective on a child 
influenced by any experience they have had with parents or older 
siblings.  

But getting back to the point:  It isn't that either Harry or Snape
is wrong here.  It's that neither of them revises their opinion of 
the other--until Snape's death.  Even after observing Harry for
several years, Snape still thought he was annoying and arrogant.
Even after learning that Snape was invested in protecting him, 
Harry saw him as interfering, out to get him, and probably evil.

Neither one was completely right about the other.

> Pippin: 
> > Snape could not recognize the things Harry had in common with Lily.
> > Harry did not see how much Snape had in common with his hero,
> > Dumbledore, until he was able to look past Snape's cruelty and sees 
> his
> > courage. And of course, he had to learn to look past Dumbledore's
> > twinkly facade of harmless benignity, too. 
> 
> Alla:
> And who should have been trying harder to see it? Eleven years old or 
> thirty six year old? Because yes, Harry praises his courage, etc and 
> as JKR said, Harry forgives him, but Snape loathes him till the very 
> end.

Montavilla47:
Well, we don't know that Snape loathes Harry at the end, and Snape
doesn't have the advantage that Harry has, of viewing the string of
memories that details (and nicely organizes) Snape's life into an 
easily digested narrative.

> Potioncat:
> It seems that many of the Hogwarts staff was eager to meet the son of
> James and Lily---and it seems his fame as The Boy Who Lived played
> some part in the teachers' eagerness. Flitwick, bless his soul, lost
> control at the actual meeting. He didn't fall on purpose.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Heh, of course not. I was saying that his fall was embarrassing for 
> Flitiwick, not for Harry IMO.

Montavilla47:
I would think it would be embarrassing for Harry as well--at least a
little and here's why:  The next year, Lockhart makes a bigger fool of
himself and Harry finds that highly embarrassing.  He also finds 
Colin Creevey embarrassing.  You could argue that both of those
people are only embarrassing themselves--but it's evident that Harry
*hates* the attention that both of them bring to him.  

He even gets embarrassed by Ginny's attentions--and again, Ginny
is really only embarrassing herself.