First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185836

Magpie:
I guess part of it is just a feeling, but it's not like a mystical
thing. I think it's got to do with the way Snape is zeroing in on
him, that kids immediately pick up on as not just a jerk teacher
putting on a show of being a jerk, but Snape picking on this one boy.
The celebrity comment is a big clue because that shows Snape knowing
it's Harry Potter he's picking on. But another teacher could even
have made that work in a lighter way. But I feel like, especially
knowing Snape and how he wears emotions on his sleeve when he's not
doing Occlumency etc., his whole demeanor and tone of voice is making
an impression on Harry. <SNIP>

Alla:

See, that is the reason why I like old topics even if we had been 
through them gazillions times and know each other many arguments by 
heart. It is that sometimes somebody says something that makes me 
look at the scene in the sort of new light. THANK YOU. It makes sense 
to me that another teacher could make the same drill sound totally 
different, if there is no personal history.

I mean, before anybody asks, I am not saying that I think what Snape 
does is okay at all, but I get how the feeling that Harry gets is the 
main issue here. Thanks Magpie.


Alla:
> To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying
> that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is
> a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to
> treat him that way.
>
> But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the
> teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero 
too?
>
> Is that what you are arguing JKR is saying? If it is correct, I can
> only say, I hope she says nothing of the kind.

Montavilla47:
Not that Pippin needs any help from me to argue a point, but I think
you are misunderstanding. You're pushing things to an extreme, which
is something that we all tend to do--and which SSSusan rightly called
me out for.

Alla:

Yes, I know in the heat of the argument we all tend to inflate our 
positions sometimes. And I certainly  had done it in the past – not 
because I like to do that, but because it just happens sometimes. But 
that is why I did ask Pippin to clarify and her reply upthread 
convinces me that I did not misunderstand her at all.



Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Nobody is saying that Harry is "bad" for having his reaction to 
Snape's
behavior in the first class. Not even me. What I am saying is that I
think that Snape's behavior is not entirely based on hatred of James
and that it isn't even beyond the norm for a strict, demanding 
teacher.

Alla:

Yes, I know. I am just disagreeing with what you are saying. Just as 
Magpie and Susan said, hatred in this scene to me pours of the pages 
very strongly. I totally understand that you are saying it could be a 
norm for a strict teacher. What I am saying and again I just do not 
see what I am misunderstanding or pushing is this : a) I do not like 
the teacher for whom such model is a norm; b) even if it can be 
called a legitimate technique, the way Snape does it is NOT 
legitimate at all and  Harry can feel it.

Montavilla47:
Nor is anybody saying that Snape (or any teacher) ought to be basing
their impression of a child based on a single incident--or from any
experiences they had with their parents.

Alla:

Yes again, I know you are not saying it. 


Montavilla47:
But getting back to the point: It isn't that either Harry or Snape
is wrong here. It's that neither of them revises their opinion of
the other--until Snape's death. Even after observing Harry for
several years, Snape still thought he was annoying and arrogant.
Even after learning that Snape was invested in protecting him,
Harry saw him as interfering, out to get him, and probably evil.

Neither one was completely right about the other.

Alla:

I totally understand what you are saying, but I am now wondering if  
my position is being clear. Yes, none of them was completely right 
about each other.  My point is that I think that the one who was 
**first** wrong  was Snape and not Harry. And since he is the 
teacher, well, he is the one to blame in my book.

So I agree with everything you wrote except the first sentence. I 
think the only one who is wrong on the first lesson is Snape.

JMO,

Alla