CHAPDISC: DH36, THE FLAW IN THE PLAN

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 185229

SSS wrote:  
> My apologies for the extreme length of this.  But hey, this was the
culminating chapter of the whole adventure!!  Surely I can be granted
a little forgiveness for having to handle all of that in 10 pages or
less? :)

Carol responds:
Oh, you could have cut half a dozen words or so! :-) Seriously, my
summary was probably at least as long. A lot happens in your chapter,
and the dialogue portions in particular (as I know well) are hard to
condense, and the really good quotes can't be paraphrased or
summarized. Right?
> 
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter
36:  The Flaw in the Plan
<snip most of the nice, detailed discussion>

SSS:
> As they reach the edge of the forest, the procession halts upon 
Voldemort's command.  Dementors are present – Harry can hear them
breathing – but they have no effect on him now.  "The fact of his own
survival burned inside him, a talisman against them, as though his
father's stag kept guardian in his heart" [p. 728].  [5]

Carol responds:
I'd forgotten this quotation. Since you didn't ask a question about
it, I hope you'll forgive me for commenting on it here. Harry owes his
survival to the drop of blood that he shares with Voldemort, which
relates to his *mother's* sacrifice. His own intended sacrifice
replicates hers. The impotence of Voldemort's spells is due, not to
his not being the master or the Elder Wand but to Harry's sacrifice,
yet he thinks of his *father* here, the father who died wandless,
shouting to Lily to flee, his death, unlike Lily's, having no magical
power. Despite that seemingly pointless sacrifice, "his father's stag"
(James's Animagus form) is still his spirit guardian. He doesn't even
have to cast the Patronus against the Dementors. The protection is
within him. (Will it remain there? Have the Dementors, supposing that
they aren't all dispersed or destroyed, permanently powerless to suck
his happiness or his soul?)

At any rate, even though I'm no fan of James, I thought that bringing
him in at this point was a nice touch, so it's not all about Lily and
the parallel between her love for Harry and his (greater or more
significant or more far-reaching) agape love for the WW.

And I wonder whether Snape's Patronus, his guardian spirit, the doe
representing Lily, was with him at the last, inside his heart, giving
him strength for his spectacular last display of wandless magic,
especially since that magic was performed for her son's benefit.

SSS:
>  Then Harry tells Voldy, "There are no more Horcruxes.  It's just
you and me.  Neither can live while the other survives, and one of us
is about to leave for good...." 
> Voldemort jeers his response.  "One of us?  You think it will be
you, do you, the boy who has survived by accident, and because
Dumbledore was pulling the strings?" [12]

Carol responds:

Just a comment here. Considering that Voldie has never heard this part
of the Prophecy and that it makes no sense whatever (both of them are
surviving at the moment against all odds), I'd think that Voldie would
just look at him and say, "Huh? What are you talking about, Potter?" I
guess he's concentrating on the second part of Harry'ls sentence. But
"you think it will be you" doesn't make any sense, either, because
Harry has just said that "one of us is about to leave for good"--and
the one that Harry (rightly) thinks will leave is Voldie, not himself.
(Where was the copyeditor--or failing that, the continuity editor?
Doesn't anyone at Bloomsbury or Scholastic have a logical mind?)
<snip remainder of summary>

> 
> QUESTIONS
> 1.  I still don't get this "like a lover" stuff between Bellatrix &
Voldemort.  What *was* their relationship, in your opinion?  What 
about Rodolphus, her husband?  Was theirs a marriage of convenience?
Did he not care, or did he know that if he did show he cared, 
Voldemort would kill him?  

Carol responds:

We can't know the answer, of course, but I don't think they had a
sexual relationship (however much Bellatrix may have desired one and
fantasized about it). Voldie has no interest in sex that I can see.
His passion is for power and immortality and his lust is bloodlust.
Nor does he feel anything like love or affection for her. (Those
feelings are revoltingly transferred to his other self, his dear
Nagini, who shares his soul and his evil nature.) Just as he has no
human face, he feels no human emotions or passions except anger, fear,
and vengeance. Granted, he's angry when Bella is killed and wants
revenge on Molly, but probably it's because Bella was the most
powerful and gifted follower he has left now that Snape is dead and
her loyalty is unquestionable.

Bella's passion for Voldemort, in contrast, clearly has an unspoken
sexual component. He seems to be, in her mind, her "lord and master,"
the old-fashioned term for a husband whose wife owed him obedience.
But he's also Rodolphus's lord and master in a different sense, and,
if Rodolphus is loyal (as he appears to be), he would forgive his
wife's fanatical passion (as long as it didn't involve sexual
infidelity). They're like the courtiers of an evil king whom they're
both eager to serve. Bellatrix seems to be the dominant partner, both
in terms of magical power and personality. He seems to go along with
her, to follow her lead, both in Crucioing the Longbottoms into
insanity and at the MoM. (His brother, Rabastan, is even more of a
follower, tagging along on both occasions, as if he can't think for
himself.) Once Rodolphus is injured (we're not told how badly) in the
Seven Potters fiasco, he falls out of the picture. Bellatrix isn't
living at home with him; she's staying at the Malfoys' (where LV was
also staying after DD's death). Maybe Rodolphus was staying there,
too, but was in St. Mungo's at the time of the battle--or back in
Azkaban or dead of his injuries. I'd like to know what happened to
him, and to Rabastan, as well. Maybe they were among the followers
that Voldie murdered in his killing spree.
> 
> 2.  Harry is surprised to not hear DE cheers, and is surprised that
Voldemort has fallen down.  Why?  After encountering the Baby-Voldy-
Thing at King's Cross, wasn't he expecting Voldemort hadn't yet won?

Carol responds:
Maybe he hadn't yet made the connection between the Baby-thing and
Voldie. He has no reason to think that Voldie would have died or been
knocked unconscious by the AK that hit him. He probably understands it
intuitively, without consciously figuring it out, with his brain
piecing everything together behind the scenes as his awareness is
focused on the voices and movements around him. Just my guess. (I was
surprised, too.)
> 
> 3.  With Narcissa's lie, we have come full circle to a mother's love
again.  How do you feel about its being this mother?  What do you 
think might have happened if Harry hadn't lucked out this way -- with
a desperate Narcissa chosen as the one to announce whether he were 
dead or not?

Carol responds:
I like what JKR has done with the Malfoys, especially Draco and
Narcissa, making them human despite their warped values and loyalties.
They're more mistaken than innately evil, despite what Hagrid says
somewhere (GoF?) about the Malfoys having bad blood. (Of course,
Narcissa is a Black, but I won't go into that.) One of many things I
liked about "Spinner's End" (setting aside the apprehension I felt for
Snape) was that it showed even Bellatrix as human--she cared about her
sister (as long as that affection didn't get in the way of service and
loyalty to the Dark Lord). I liked having Narcissa tied in with the
theme of mother love, both in HBP (where she goes to Snape for help
despite opposition from Bella) and in this chapter (where she has only
her own wits and desperate courage to rely on). She's not a heroine;
she doesn't hesitate to put her own friend and helper, Snape, in
desperate danger through the Unbreakable Vow. She doesn't look into
Voldie's eyes and openly lie to him, as Snape did (obviously, she's no
Occlumens). But she loves her son and that love is greater than her
loyalty to Voldie (not surprising after his treatment of her family in
HBP and DH. Even Lucius ends up not fighting, caring more about his
son than the power he deludedly hopes he can resume even as late as
"Malfoy Manor." 

What would have happened if Harry hadn't "lucked out"? I think that LV
would have killed him. They no longer had a connection, so the drop of
blood wouldn't have protected him, and the Elder Wand didn't yet know
he was its master. And he couldn't have killed LV, who still had one
Horcrux (Nagini) left. At best, Harry could have reduced him to
Vapormort again before dying himself.
> 
> 4.  Hagrid, in his grief, accuses the centaurs of cowardice and of
being happy that Harry has died.  Yet they do arrive, in the nick of
time, and fight the DEs.  Did they know Harry wasn't dead, or if they
did not, why did they fight?

Carol responds:
I don't think they knew that Harry wasn't dead. More likely, IMO, they
fought for the same reason that the House Elves did. They didn't want
Voldemort and the DEs to take over Hogwarts--as it must have seemed
likely that they would do with the "death" of Harry Potter. The battle
was no longer a dispute between Wizards. The Centaurs didn't want a
group that regarded them as "filthy half-breeds" to take away their
land and freedom. I think it took the shock of seeing Harry "dead" to
make them see their danger. (I was happy that even Bane, the most
anti-Wizard of the Centaurs, joined in the fight.)
> 
> 5.  Why is it that Harry does not feel the pain of the Crucio? Is it
the same reason the Dementors don't affect him? 

Carol responds:
Harry's sacrifice has robbed Voldemort's magic of its power, as we see
later (even before the Elder Wand knows that he's its master; it would
not have hit him with the AK if it had known the true state of
affairs). Harry has just survived death or something like it (no,
Geoff; I'm not saying that it's a resurrection or anything of the
sort, more of a near-death experience). He's protected by his own
self-sacrifice now, his mother's love having performed its last work
in saving him from the AK. (I think the blood protection was destroyed
along with the soul bit--he and Voldie are no longer linked by
anything except fate and the Prophecy, "fate" being determined by
their joint decision to fight each other alone.) I commented earlier
about Harry's feeling as if his father's Patronus was inside him
protecting him from the Dementors, but I think it's really joy and
confidence and love and all the power of the triumphant human spirit,
which they can't reach. Harry isn't afraid of them or of death (or
even, apparently, of losing his soul). They have, at least for now, no
power over him, because he's not subject to depression or despair. Or
that's how I read it.
> 
> 6.  Do you believe Voldemort made his offer of forgiveness
sincerely?  Would those who surrendered have been forgiven and allowed
to live? 

Carol responds:
Voldie is only as sincere as necessity dictates. He rewards followers
who seem loyal or gifted or both (until they fail him), but, like any
leader, he uses them to do what he can't or won't do himself. He
*needs* people like Snape (now dead) and Yaxley and Travers who can
run Hogwart or infiltrate the Ministry as much as he needs the
fanatical Bellatrix (and bullies like Thorfinn Rowle and terrorists
like Fenrir Greyback. He knows that he can manipulate or scare people
into serving him, resorting to Imperius if necessary, and he probably
thinks, based on the people he knows best, that most people will put
their own lives and safety (or the desire for a share of wealth and
power) above all other considerations. I think he would have killed
those like McGonagall and the DA members who continued to resist him
but would have spared anyone who put down his or her wand, torturing
those who asked for mercy but not killing them. He would not kill most
of the Hogwarts students because he needs a new generation of
(properly indoctrinated) witches and wizards, and no one at the battle
(except the Creevey brothers) would have been killed for being
Muggle-borns (all the Muggle-borns having been prevented from
attending Hogwarts and/or had their wands taken away). So, yes, I
think he would have let them live if they met his demands. He was
running short on DEs, and he needed capable people in other positions,
especially if he intended to expand his power beyond the UK.
> 
> 7.  Okay, Voldy knows the untruth of Harry letting others sacrifice
themselves for him.  What is he trying to do in telling everyone at
Hogwarts that he was killed while running away and that he was never
anything but someone who let others sacrifice themselves for him? 
Does Voldy believe what he's saying, or is he trying to convince the
others?

Carol responds:
Good question. He seems to be a habitual liar (witness his statement
about Draco and the Slytherins and about Snape "desiring" Lily), and
certainly he wants to discredit Harry, but maybe he's trying to fool
himself as well, saying what he wants to believe. ("If Lord Voldemort
says it, it must be true.") I suppose he's trying to create what will
be the official version of "truth" or "history" when he takes over.
Harry did face him unarmed, allowing LV to "kill" him without a fight,
but not until after others, including Fred and Lupin, had died in his
cause. There's a shred of truth in his statement--others *have*
sacrificed themselves for Harry and his cause. If Voldie won, the rest
of the statement--that Harry was a coward and allowed them to die for
nothing--would eventually be accepted as well. History, after all, is
written by the victor.
> 
> 8.  It's interesting that Voldemort specifies just the emblem,
shield and colors of Slytherin being good enough for all.  Why didn't
he say anything about Slytherin's principles?  Or were they implied
along with the rest?

Carol responds:

I think the Slytherin principles are implied. He's already rid the
school of Muggle-borns, so that's one of Salazar Slytherin's goals
accomplished. He's also (he thinks) eliminated the Sorting Hat, which
means no more students Sorted according to courage, intelligence, or
loyalty/hard work; no more speeches about those virtues belonging to
other Houses (they can now become Slytherin virtues--witness his
statements in this chapter and "The Prince's Tale" on how he values
courage); no more stories about the history of the school, which he
can now rewrite (or have a follower rewrite). If he's succeeded in
burning the Sorting Hat, he would also, in one fell swoop, have
eliminated not only House rivalries (and alliances of two or more
other Houses against Slytherin, with Heads of Houses supporting their
own students and indoctrinating them in the values of their particular
House) but the whole system of House points. Any points awarded would
be to an individual Slytherin, promoting a kind of
every-student-for-himself mentality. Ambition (and possibly cheating)
would be rewarded. With Dark magic not only taught but used for
detentions and Muggle Studies as a required exercise in anti-Muggle,
anti-"Mudblood," anti-"Half-Breed" indoctrination (assuming that the
curriculum of DH was continued and perfected--imagine Umbridge as
Muggle Studies teacher), Hogwarts would soon become another
Durmstrang, or worse. (The Durmstrang students didn't seem half bad
despite having ex-DE Karkaroff as their headmaster. The new Hogwarts
would probably reward rather than expel a Grindelwald in their midst.)
So, to return to the question, Slytherin principles and values would
be part of the curriculum and, after the first seven years, when the
students who remembered the old Hogwarts and Dumbledore had all
graduated, the seeming natural order of things. Indoctrinate them when
they're young; make sure that the Daily Prophet also follows the party
line; pretty soon Salazar Slytherin's (and Voldemort's) worldview
would be nearly universal among the younger generation, who, in turn,
would pass it on to their children. Or so Voldie must have hoped and
expected. 
> 
> 9.  Why/How was Neville able to break free of the Body-Bind Curse? 
He certainly couldn't break free of Hermione's in first year!

Carol responds:

I don't think it's Neville's doing. I think it's the failure of
Voldie's magic thanks to Harry's self-sacrifice. Even if he'd used his
own wand rather than the Elder Wand, I don't think it would have been
effective.
> 
> 10.  Does it say anything beyond "only a true Gryffindor" that 
Neville also found Gryffindor's sword in the Sorting Hat?  Does it say
anything about the Chosen One or about the prophecy?  Or not?

Carol responds:
I don't think it has anything to do with the Chosen One or the
Prophecy (except that the readers wanted Neville, the other potential
Prophecy boy, to have a heroic role). Neville himself had no idea how
close he had come to either death or a destiny like Harry's, and he
didn't have a soul bit in him. I think his drawing the sword out of
the hat (which seems to have been almost instinctive unless the Sword
or the Hat somehow put the thought into his head) has everything to do
with being a true Gryffindor. If we put together DD's statement about
Harry drawing the sword in CoS (and what Harry went through, including
exactly when he drew it out) with Scrimgeour's and Portrait!DD's words
about the sword in DH, along with Snape's test of courage and valor
that *Ron* rather than Harry ended up passing, we have a pretty good
idea of the circumstances under which the sword will come to a "true
Gryffindor" and what constitutes a true (or worthy) Gryffindor.
Whether the Sword is always concealed in the Sorting Hat is less
clear. One thing is certain, though. The Sword didn't belong to
Griphook or any other Goblin!

Carol, who thinks that this post is already too long and will answer
the rest in a second one!