Wand allegiance.

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 187328

Carol earlier:
> 
> > But where's the evidence that it [Voldemort's wand] isn't working> absolutely perfectly?

eggplant responded: 
> As powerful as Voldemort was he wanted to be even more powerful, that was his entire reason for perusing the Elder Wand, but when he finally got it he informs Snape that he's no more powerful than he was before. That is no more a plot hole than Malfoy possessing the Hand of Glory even though we don't actually see him purchase it.

Carol again:
Maybe it's not possible for Voldemort to be more powerful than he already is. In any case, the only spells he attempts to cast with the Elder Wand (before Harry's self-sacrifice messes up his spell casting and before he sics Nagini on Snape)--multiple murders of DEs, Nagini's bubble, clearing the potion in the cave--don't need to be any more powerful than they are. He does not attempt any spectacular magic other than the extremely successful bubble for Nagini. He simply has no grounds for suddenly doubting the Elder Wand after successfully using it for about a month. It *is* a plot hole, IMO, and unless you can show me evidence that the wand didn't do what he wanted it to, I will continue to hold that view. (Voldemort's word is not evidence at all given all the times we've seen him lie, starting with James putting up a good fight in SS/PS. And, of course, he can also be simply mistaken, as in his inability to understand Snape's love of Lily.)

With regard to Draco, the plot hole is not his possessing the Hand of Glory, which I think must have been brought to him by one of the DEs at who came through the Vanishing Cabinet or else the Room of Requirement supplied it. In either case, Draco had presumably paid for it at some point though we don't see him do so in either of the visits to Borgin and Burke's that Harry witnesses. Possibly, he bought it by owl order at the same time that he bought the cursed necklace, which he left with the Imperiused Rosmerta, and asked Borgin to hold it for him.) The plot hole is in *Ron's* having seen Draco with the Hand of Glory, which Harry never even told Ron about so far as we know. (And why would he? Lucius Malfoy refused to buy it for Draco in CoS, and Harry has no way of knowing that it will be important later.) We don't see the Hand of Glory during Draco's second visit to Borgin--he leaves the shop without having made a purchase. And, obviously, he can't have sneaked it into the school when everyone was being searched by Secrecy Sensors. If they detected Crabbe's Shrunken Head, they obviously would have detected a Hand of Glory.

So, sure, Draco could somehow have acquired the Hand of Glory. That's not the problem. The problem is that Ron could not have seen "that shriveled hand that Malfoy had."

BTW, I just finished reading PoA, and for some reason, Wood (and therefore JKR) still thinks it's been seven years (rather than nine) since Gryffindor won the Quidditch Cup. Funny; it was seven years in SS/PS, too (and yet they hadn't won the cup since Charlie was Seeker, which would have been the previous year if he's really only three years older than Percy).

The problem is, JKR trusts her memory too often rather than consulting the relevant book--which I suppose is why she says three times that James was fifteen in SWM yet gives him a March birthday in DH, meaning that he, like Remus, Severus, and Lily (I don't know about Sirius or Peter) would have been sixteen at that time.

And there are dozens of other such errors (even S-bend vs. U-bend for Moaning Myrtle). And I've given up trying to follow directions when HRH are trying to find the Divination classroom--or figuring out why Ron and Hermione try to go to the Owlery from the third floor by way of the Entrance Hall in SS/PS.

Carol earlier:
> > it couldn't possibly work better than it did 

Eggplant: 
> Of course it could! Undoubtedly Voldemort wished he could just flick his wand and Hogwarts along with Harry Potter would just dissolve into dust and needed no help from Giants or Spiders or Werewolfs to do it. Even Voldemort wasn't powerful enough to do that, but if he was Master of the Elder Wand he might have been able to pull it off, or at least come close. It all makes logical sense, I just don't understand how you can say this is a plot hole.

Carol responds:
Even Voldemort knows that magic has its limits. Now if we had seen him express such a wish or desire (and Harry has been inside his mind just before LV came to Hogwarts, at which point, he was thinking about Horcruxes and not the Elder Wand), it would be different. If we had seen him attempt really spectacular magic (which Snape says he's performed with that wand) and complain that it wasn't sufficiently spectacular (as it is, he credits the spectacular results to his own abilities), we'd have grounds for thinking that the Wand has failed him. The problem is, it's done everything he's asked of it, performing just as well as his own very powerful wand, the wand that chose him and is suited to him and has never failed him except when it was thwarted by Lily's Love Magic (Voldemort's own fault for breaking his word) or it happened to encounter its own brother, and that was *Voldemort's* fault--his evil desires couldn't compete with Harry's love and courage, especially when Harry had the echoes cheering him on.

Where is the evidence that the Elder Wand could do what you say it could do? Look at the duel between Voldemort and Dumbledore. It isn't the Elder Wand that keeps Voldemort from AKing Dumbledore. It's Fawkes swallowing the Killing Curse. Both of them are casting spectacular curses (LV's probably Darker), but Dumbledore never decisively wins that battle. Voldemort loses it because he tries and fails to possess Harry and then the Ministry shows up--noting to do with the Elder Wand at all. (Of course, Dumbledore could have cast an AK, too, but he knew it would be futile--Vapor!mort all over again.)

Carol earlier:
> > A few wands, such as the Snatcher's wand that Harry tries to use, don't work at all for those who aren't their masters

Eggplant: 
> That is just untrue.

Carol:
Untrue? Have you forgotten that Harry can't make the Snatcher's wand work for him in DH? Maybe I should have said "at least one wand," although we also see Neville having trouble with his father's wand. And we also have Ollivander's words that "a wizard will never get such good results with another wizard's wand," which are really only illustrated with the Snatcher's wand. (I can quote if necessary; it's in DH after Ron returns and Harry has lost his own wand.) And it's possible, though we can't know one way or the other, that Ron's mediocre performance in SS/PS is partly the result of using Charlie's wand. The only spell we see him performing correctly is Wingardium Leviosa on the troll's club. (In CoS, of course, his wand is broken.) 

Eggplant:
> And it's no more a mystery than that some shoe sizes are more comfortable to my feet than others. No plot hole that I can see. 

Carol responds:
I don't see your point. I'm not talking about the size and shape of a wand--of course, Hagrid's sixteen-inch-wand (assuming that it were unbroken) would be awkward for the average wizard. Possibly, Umbridge's stubby one would, too. But I'm not talking about wand size or even wand wood and wand cores, which you'd think would be more important given Ollivander's words in SS/PS. I'm talking about inconsistency. Why, if Harry feels uncomfortable with the Snatcher's wand and can't even undo the Engorgio spell he's performed on a spider, can Hermione use a wand she feels even more uncomfortable with, Bellatrix's, not only in the Gringott's robbery but in the battle of Hogwarts? The only spell she has trouble casting, IIRC, is the Patronus Charm, which has always been her feeblest spell, anyway. And we see Black in PoA using Snape's wand with no problem. We see Wormtail using Lupin's wand with no problem. (HRH's and Snape's wand have all had Expelliarmus performed on them and yet work fine when they're restored to their owners.)

It's just like having Lupin transform into a werewolf when the moon comes out from behind a cloud rather than when the full moon first appears in the sky, cloud or no cloud. If clouds made a difference, he wouldn't transform on a cloudy night. Or, better yet, he could stay indoors away from the moonlight and he'd be fine. But plot needs trump logic and consistency (and math) every time.

Carol earlier: 
> > most of the time, whether or not a wand has been "won," wizards seem to have no great difficulty using other wizards' wands.

Eggplant:  
> No plot hole here either, as Oleander says if you are any sort of Wizard at all you could use almost any wand, but don't expect to get the very best results with any old wand.

Carol responds:
What's not "best results" about a spell that does what its supposed to do? Almost the only time we see a wand not giving "the best results" is when Harry tries to use the Snatcher's wand and can't. Other reasons for a wand not working are failure to pronounce the spell correctly ("Stubefy") or a broken wand (Ron's in CoS; Harry's in DH) or inexperience of the caster (Harry has trouble learning some spells but immediately learns others; no consistency there, either.) Almost everyone except Hermione has trouble with Transfiguration spells, but, again, that's the inexperience of the caster, not the wand the student is using. And Ron's wand backfires on Lockhart not because Lockhart isn't its master or has been Disarmed but because the wand is broken; we've already seen it backfire on Ron.

Carol earlier: 
> > Inconsistency, thy name is JKR. 

Eggplant: 
> That's a bit strong for one plot hole.

Carol:
True, but as you can see from this post, I wasn't thinking of just one plot hole. I haven't even mentioned Lily's letter to Sirius and how it could have gotten to 12 GP (or the inconsistency in dating there). Every time I read one of the books, I have to get past a plot hole or an inconsistency. *What* skulls in the Slytherin common room? And why would Hermione, who knows perfectly well that Penelope Clearwater is a Muggle-born, choose *her* name? (I suppose it's evidence that she was too hysterical to think clearly.)

Carol earlier:  
> > Using it against opponents isn't keeping it out of circulation 

Eggplant: 
> I think it is if you want to break that circle.

Carol:
No. Keeping it out of circulation means not using it. Exposing the thing to public view reminds people of its existence and if the type of wizard who's willing to kill and steal to own it still exists in the WW, that person will find a way to get the wand (as Grindelwald did and the person who murdered Antiochus Peverell did). Just Disarm him when his back is turned and you've got it. OTOH, it's pointless to Disarm Harry of his own wand (most people, as Steve said, won't understand that doing so would also make that person the master of the Elder Wand *if* the Elder Wand knew about it and *if* it chose to abandon Harry, the wizard who defeated Voldemort) if they didn't know where the Elder Wand was hidden because of a Fidelius Charm or couldn't get to it because of protections on Hogwarts.

As long as Harry dies a natural death and gets his wand back any time he's disarmed, he'll remain master of the Elder Wand. And even if he's not its master, if the new master can't get to the wand, at least it's out of circulation. BTW, if I were Ginny and Harry were killed (not likely given the way the story is written), I'd burn the d****d Elder Wand or stab it with a Basilisk fang or the Sword of Gryffindor. If you can destroy a Horcrux, you can destroy a Hallow. 

Carol earlier:
> > Dumbledore was careful not to kill with the wand 

Eggplant: 
> And I'm not suggesting that Harry use it for the next 50 years to become a serial murderer. Dumbledore used it for half a century with good results, and Harry is a better man.

Carol again:
No question that Harry is a better man, but he's not nearly as powerful or brilliant or knowledgeable as Dumbledore. And DD could use it for half a century only because no one knew that he had it. Let's face it. For what Harry needs--a wand that will serve him well and faithfully--the holly wand is exactly what he needs (especially if he masters nonverbal spells). Thanks to Snape, Harry has learned and mastered Expelliarmus. And that spell, combined with Harry's phenomenal luck, defeated Voldemort. With Expelliarmus plus his own wand plus luck plus friends plus a few more DADA spells that he's good at, Harry doesn't need the Elder Wand, and he would be foolish in the extreme to bring it into public view where others would be constantly aware of it and a few Dark wizards, undeterred by its bloody history, might be tempted to take it.

Carol: 
> > It just makes him a target for others who are equally deluded.

Eggplant: 
> Perhaps but that can't be helped. 

Carol:
Sure it can. Just take the wand out of the public eye and let people forget about it. As Steve pointed out, hardly anybody would have fully understood the conversation between Harry and Voldemort. Their thoughts and fears would have been focused on the battle to come, and they wouldn't have the background knowledge that Harry had to understand wandlore. Nor, I think would anyone watching that battle (including the Malfoys) have wanted anything to do with the wand that Voldemort tried to use to kill Harry Potter.
Harry remains the Master of the Elder Wand and there is nothing he can do about it, except get himself defeated. As I say that may mean that Harry is condemned to lead an interesting life, but why would a writer want to avoid hinting at that?

Eggplant:
> I think the Elder Wand is Harry's just reward too, and like them I'd be puzzled why nobody ever sees him use it and I'd wonder where it was. I don't think it would take me long to come up with a pretty good guess. 

Carol responds:
But the people who think it's Harry's just reward aren't going to go after it, and no one else was present at that last battle (the DEs were all dead or unconscious). Sure, there will be pub talk, but just like the story about the murder of the Riddles, it will be talk by people who don't know the whole truth, and pretty soon it will pass into legend. We see two things happening with incidents in the WW about which people don't know all the facts; either they're preserved in incorrect form as common "knowledge" like Sirius Black's "murder" of thirteen people or the legend of the Chamber of Secrets or they're forgotten about (like Harry's various triumphs over LV or Diary!Riddle and the Basilisk. Neither Harry nor Dumbledore ever presents the full story, and the ignorance of the DA members about these exploits shows how little they really know. Something similar is bound to happen with the battle of Hogwarts. A few conflicting details will get out, but no one except Harry (and maybe Ron and Hermione) will know all the details. The Daily Prophet will no doubt present its own incorrect version. Speculation will flourish. Harry will still be famous. The only difference is that now he won't be in constant danger from Voldemort and he's indifferent to popular opinion (and fame and "glory").

> 
> Me (er, Eggplant):
> >> Everybody knows the wand was once in Dumbledore's tomb and if somebody is looking for it again that would be the
> >> first place they'd look.
> 
> You (er, me, er, Carol earlier):
> > "Everybody" knows no such thing. True, Voldemort said that he took it from there, but only a few hundred people heard him 

Carol: 
> In addition to all the people at the Battle of Hogwarts there were thousands of people at Dumbledore's funeral and probably an equal number of non humans; They saw him buried with his wand, as is apparently Wizard custom. 

Carol responds:
No, they didn't. They saw Hagrid carrying Dumbledore's body covered in a cloth. It might have been a wax dummy for all they knew. Neither Dumbledore nor his wand was visible, and we have no idea whether wizards are usually buried with their wands. Maybe the wand is usually broken; maybe it's generally kept as an heirloom. Maybe a wand can be willed to another wizard, requested by its master to take a new owner. We just don't know. But not one person other than Hagrid would have known that the wand was there. Harry didn't. Voldemort only guessed it. Too bad he didn't guess wrong. (If DD had had his way, the wand *wouldn't* have been there. Snape would have had it--and, I hope, it would have been only a stick of wood. Imagine if Snape had presented the dead wand to Voldemort as a (supposed) mark of his triumph over him. The search for the Elder Wand would have ended at the point when LV realized that the Elder Wand had lost its powers.)

Eggplant:
I'm thinking of the sad song "Odo The Wizard". 

Carol:
I don't think we can count a drinking song as representing invariable WW tradition. In any case, isn't Odo's wand broken? (I could be wrong; I don't have time to go back and look.) Too bad we don't wee any other wizarding funerals.

Carol earlier: 
> > I don't recall Dumbledore saying that he couldn't cast an unbreakable protective spell.

Eggplant: 
> I do, he told Harry that's why his mother's protective spell was so important, and even that won't last forever. 

Carol responds:
That's completely different. A spell cast to protect a child using its mother's love (which for all we know is unique to DD) would naturally end when the child was no longer a child. OTOH, DD says elsewhere that some of his protective magic won't end as long as anyone at Hogwarts is loyal to him, and some of the protective spells, for example the anti-Apparition spells around Hogwarts, seem to have been cast by the Founders but are still in effect a thousand years later. Salazar Slytherin protected the Chamber of Secrets so that it could only be found by his own true heir (or someone who had a bit of the true heir's soul in a scar, a possibility that Slytherin didn't foresee). Not all spells end with the caster's death or Hogwarts would have fallen into ruins or become visible to Muggles centuries earlier. Some of the spells that Orion Black cast on 12 GP also remain, IIRC.

Carol earlier: 
> > But who in the WW has a motive to take the wand from the hero who defeated Voldemort?

Eggplant: 
> Someone who wasn't a very nice person I would think, such people are never in short supply. Harry's defeat of Voldemort was great but he hasn't destroyed evil forever. There is always another dark wizard.

Carol:
Yes, but Dark wizards don't grow on trees. We've seen the Slytherins of Harry's time and not one of them, including Draco, seems powerful enough or motivated enough to defeat Harry. Dark Wizards of the caliber of Grindelwald or Voldemort seem to come along only once or twice in a century. Sure, there will always be evil people. Prejudice hasn't been eradicated; we don't know what happened to Umbridge. Some of the Snatchers may still be running around. You'll always have petty lawbreakers of the Mundungus Fletcher or Willy Widdershins type running around. But someone who wants the most powerful wand in the world for the sole purpose of--what? Winning all duels? Defeating the great Harry Potter? Ruling the WW? As long as the wand is safely hidden and Harry keeps silent about the details (which were surely foggy to any listeners--you must know how unreliable the human memory is and how even eye witnesses remember things differently minus a Pensieve--people will forget what they know or think they know and people who weren't present will get only an inaccurate version of the story. And if a Fidelius Charm is cast on the wand, even its existence will be largely forgotten.

Carol earlier: 
> > The last thing he wants is to spend it fighting to keep the mastery of the Elder Wand. 

Eggplant: 
> Harry's wishes on this matter are irrelevant, and anyway for a moment stop putting yourself in the position of Harry and put yourself in the position of JKR.

Carol responds:
Please don't tell me what to do. And Harry's wishes are not irrelevant. His choices at the end of the book--to keep the Invisibility Cloak without, of course, advertising that it's a Hallow; to leave the Resurrection Stone where it lies; and to put the Elder Wand back after using it to repair his own--show who he is, just as choices always do in the HP books. And what he wants (peace for the WW, a normal life for himself) *is relevant to that choice. But, actually, I am putting myself in the position of JKR. Her hero Harry is never defeated except through accident or interference (Dobby), and luck, friends, coincidence, or dei ex machina (hope my Latin plural is corrrect!) always save him. So, JKR chooses the outcome that's in character for Harry and appropriate to the themes of the book. *She* wants the power of the Elder Wand ended as much as Harry and DD do. And she's not going to allow some future Dark Wizard (for the sake of argument, Scorpius Malfoy although I'd rather see little Scorpius fall in love with Rose Weasley) defeat him. "All was well," and, I suspect, all will remain well with "the hero who vanquished the Dark Lord." 

Eggplant:
 What's the point of implying that your main character's life was very dull after you stopped writing about him? I really think this getting rid of the Elder Wand business was a last minute change because unlike the rest of the plot it doesn't seem to be well thought out. 

Carol responds:
Very dull? All Harry has ever wanted since SS/PS is to be Just Harry with a normal life and a loving family (and, since HBP, to marry Ginny Weasley). I'll bet anything that getting rid of the Elder Wand was planned from the beginning as the right thing to do, both sensible with regard to getting rid of a perennial source of strife and in character for Harry.

Carol, who suspects that Harry's job and kids (especially James) give him as much excitement as he wants (if he's bored, he can watch a Quidditch match or visit Charlie and his dragons in Romania)