Snape's Psycology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 187436

> > > Beatrice: Harry uses sectumsepra in essence, because he doesn't know what it does.  It is a spell that pops into his head as he is in full "fight" mode and as soon as he sees what it does he immediately regrets his actions and punishes himself emotionally for a long time after.  
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > Um.  No, he doesn't.  Harry feels bad for about ten minutes, while Draco
> > is lying on the floor bleeding and Snape is healing him.  Then, when
> > Snape returns from taking Draco to the Hospital Wing and begins 
> > questioning Harry, that guilty feeling is transformed into defiance and
> > anger.
> > 
> Beatrice: If I remember correctly, Harry is trying to protect his book, not avoid taking responsibility for his actions.  

Montavilla47:
Harry is trying to protect his book, more than avoid responsibility
for his actions.  But he also complains to McGonagall about the 
detentions he receives for nearly killing a fellow student.  

And he spends those detentions thinking about how much he
hates Snape and how Snape is ruining his chances to play
Quidditch or spend time with Ginny.  Not in feeling bad about 
having almost killed a fellow student.

Beatrice:
In fact, Harry never defends his actions (other characters point out that Draco was about to use an unforgivable curse on Harry, but Harry never makes excuses for himself).  

Montavilla47:
Nor does he need to, since his friends are doing that for him.

Beatrice:
Harry does defend the "Prince," ironically Snape, when Hermione starts condemning the book again.  Harry mentions several times how horrible he feels and even indicates that he deserves to have detention every Saturday for the rest of the year for what his curse did.  Also, it might be important to note here that when Harry sees what his curse does he yells "no!" and tries to stop the flow of blood not run away or make excuses for himself.

Montavilla47:
Harry does defend the Prince, but he also feels betrayed by the Prince, IIRC, 
like a favorite pet who suddenly turned savage.

Harry's reaction does show remorse at the moment, and it speaks well for
Harry.  But I'm not sure it speaks better for him than most normal people
in that situation.  I know that Draco shows no remorse when he breaks
Harry's nose in the train at the beginning of the year, but I'd be willing to
bet that if Harry had suddenly started bleeding in a dozen places, Draco
would have been just as horrified.

Quite probably, teen!Snape would have been just as horrified if his
spell had produced that reaction.  

The only analogous situation that I can think of with Snape was 
when he was ten and Petunia was hit--and he denied doing it.  But
I don't think the situations are really close enough, either in how they
came about, the outcomes, or the maturity level of the participants to 
make a good comparison.


> > Montavilla47:
> >He uses [Sectumsempra] in the cave when he's surrounded by
> > Inferi.  
> 
> Beatrice:  Sure, but can you harm a dead body?  What I meant to say is that he never uses it on a human being again.  
<snip>
What I was trying to say is that Harry may use these terrible curses, but for the most part he tries not to repeat his mistakes and feels badly for harming anyone even if it is necessary (perhaps Carrow is the exception here - but we don't know what Harry feels in the aftermath of the battle).  

Montavilla47:
That is not always the case.  For example, he uses curses on Draco 
several times throughout the books without feeling any remorse.  In 
GoF, Harry and his friends leave Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle unconscious
in the train compartment with their faces sprouting tentacles without
a second thought.  In OotP, they stuff them into the overhead 
compartments in a jellified, boneless state.  (They are described 
as resembling giant slugs.)

Harry is even less sympathetic when others are caused pain by
his friends or associates.  He has no sympathy for whatever trauma
Umbridge suffered at the hands (and hooves) of the centaurs.  He
notes, "with satisfaction" that Marietta is still facially scarred months
after she is cursed by Hermione.


Beatrice:
Snape on the other hand, is more like a soldier/warrior who - or at least in the one battle we truly see him in action.  We see him use a spell whose effects he is very familiar with and Lupin even tells us that Sectemsepra "was his speciality."  

Montavilla47:
Yes, but Snape *is* a soldier and an adult.  He is also an 
accomplished dueler.  By the way, I didn't notice him 
running away or making excuses in that broom battle.

  
> > Montavilla47:
> > Crucio is an unforgivable curse, and it's only purpose is to cause pain.
> > Sectumsempra is a spell not currently approved by the Ministry 
> > (whatever that means) and "Dark Magic" (according to Snape who ought
> > to know).  "Dark Magic" and "Unforgivable are not the same thing.
> 
> Beatrice:  Just because there are only three "unforgivable" curses as detailed by the Ministry  (See my eyes roll at the word Ministry)  doesn't mean that there are things that should not be done.  Perhaps Sectumsempra is not on the list because it is not a widely used or known spell.  Or perhaps because the Ministry needs to leave some spells open for people to defend themselves.  Or perhaps their government is just as efficient as muggle governments.  The MoM doesn't place the spells for creating Horcruxes on this list either, but while you can learn about the three aforementioned curses Hermione can only find information on Horcruxes in one book in the restricted section not removed by DD and that book refuses to do more than mention how horrible it is and 

Montavilla47:
But, there are still only three Unforgivable spells, as specified by the 
author.  And Sectumsempra, while designated "Dark" by its creator 
(which makes it "Dark" to me), is not one of those spells.  If 
Sectumsempra were meant to be as dire as an Unforgivable, then 
I don't think JKR would have designated those three spells as 
especially bad.


> > Beatrice:
> > Harry, to me is more worthy, because he may act on his emotions and make mistakes, but he knows that they are his mistakes and he regrets them (or most of them).  

Montavilla47:
I'm snipping my rebuttal, because I realize that you are focusing this
on Harry's worthiness for the wand, and my answer was based on a more
general question.  My apologies.


> > Montavilla47:
> > There are a number of Snape fans who feel that Snape's life
> > has been hogtied by his obligation to Dumbledore--an obligation 
> > motivated by a desire to protect, not a desire for vengeance.
> 
> Beatrice:  Don't mistake me here.  I suppose there are lots of people like Snape who walk around just fine.  I was really talking about a larger literary pattern of character development the idea of characters who are both driven by losing people they love - but are unable to love again, and those who are consumed with vengence.


Montavilla47:
I'm not sure I understand what this larger pattern of character
development is.  Are you making a distinction between characters
who lose people they love--and are unable to love again, and those
characters who are consumed with vengeance?

I would put Snape into the first category, but not into the second.
I see Snape as consumed with *responsibility*, but not with 
vengeance.  If anything, vengeance is an obstacle that he must
try (and sometimes, but always fail) to overcome into order to 
fulfill the responsibility he took on when he asked for Dumbledore's
help.

> > Montavilla47:
> > I don't see that Snape hates muggles.  He hates Petunia, but then, so does
> > everyone except Lily.
> 
> Beatrice:  Okay, why then become a Death Eater?  Surely not for the health benefits?  The snazzy uniforms?  Sorry I don't mean to be flip here or to disparage your argument which although I disagree, is nicely constructed.  What I am trying to say here is that Snape must agree with the ideology here, even if he is deluding himself to thinking it is "for the greater good."  Even Lily points out that Snape calls everyone of her birth "mudblood" and only seems to make an exception for her.

Montavilla47:
I think Snape agreed with the ideology to a certain extent in his youth.  
At the very least, he didn't *disagree* with it--and only made the exception
for Lily.  But it seems the intention to show that he *disagreed* with it 
at the end of the book, when he told Phineas Nigellus not to use the word
"mudblood."

But, again, I don't see the evidence that Snape *hated* either muggles
or muggle-born.  What I see is that Snape was *indifferent* about the 
fates of people he didn't specifically love (i.e., Lily).  It's not his *hatred*
that disgusts Dumbledore.  It's his *indifference.*

What changes in Snape over the years from when he begs 
Dumbledore to protect Lily to when he dies giving Harry that 
final message is that Snape is no longer indifferent, even to those
people, like Harry or Lupin, that he hates or despises.  He is now
trying to save everyone he can.

Just like Harry.


> > Montavilla47:
> > Really?  When does Harry show any love towards muggles?
> > 
> Beatrice:  Love?  Well, maybe not love, but he is certainly disguisted by their ill treatment (too many points to mention here.)  He even saves Dudley' life in OotP and helps the Dursleys who wouldn't lift a finger for Harry go into hiding.

Montavilla47:
Except for Mr. Roberts and his family, the Dursleys are the
only Muggles we ever see in the series.  Except for saving 
Dudley's life (and Harry was saving his own life as much as 
he was saving Dudley's at that point), Harry never does a 
single act of kindness for any muggle.

And he steals the identifies of two muggles without any
respect for their feelings on the subject.  I wouldn't say
that Harry dislikes muggles in general, but I don't see a 
lot of love there.

> > Beatrice:
> > When if ever does Snape show compassion for anyone other than himself and Lily? 
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > When he swears an unbreakable vow to Narcissa to protect her son.  In 
> > contrast to Dumbledore, Snape vows to protect Draco without asking 
> > anything in return.
> 
> Beatrice:  On DD's orders.  We know that DD has already injured his hand when Snape make the unbreakable vow from (DH) and DD gives Snape his orders on the night that he is injured.  AND DD's orders are as follows; Stay undercover as a DE, do whatever you need to to make it believable; Kill DD to save Draco's soul; protect Draco Malfoy from LV and from himself (as he is still just a young man and may live to regret his choices); etc.  There is more but these are the most important points.

Montavilla47:
But DD doesn't not order Snape to swear an Unbreakable Vow.  By making
that vow, Snape is endangering his cover--if Voldemort were to find out,
then it could cause Snape problems.  

Snape could kill DD without swearing any vow.  The vow only ties his hands.
Having pondered that vow for two years, the only practical reason I could
find for Snape to take the vow was to protect Draco from Voldemort.  And it
was a big risk.

And it showed compassion for Narcissa Malfoy.  Which was my point.

> > Beatrice:
> > Even in death Snape only has a moment of looking at Harry's eyes, Lily's eyes before he dies.  Throughout his life, Snape seems motivated by his own selfish desires, no consumed by them and his horrible prejudices.  
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > Yes, he *seems* that way.  That's because the author is playing a 
> > twist on us.  The whole point of the Prince's Tale is to show us that
> > Snape, who seemed to be motivated by envy, selfish ambition, 
> > horrible prejudice and vengeance, was instead motivated by love.
> > 
> 
> Beatrice:  Love, yes...but unlike Harry it is really only one person that he seems capable of loving.  Maybe you could argue that he loves Dumbledore, but he really has very little kindness in him unlike Harry.  Don't mistake me, I feel for Snape, I really do.  I just think that he is terribly damaged as a character, terribly interesting, too...

Montavilla47:
Does it really matter if you love only one person, as long as you
love?  Snape may be damaged, but I don't think that necessarily
makes him unworthy of the responsibility of the Elder Wand.

I think it's the damage he's had and the obstacles he's overcome
that make him worthier than a young man who is rash and often
runs into action without thinking.

Mind you, I think Harry is a lot more "worthy" at the end of the
story than he was, say, at the end of HBP.  And I don't think he 
would be a bad person to hold the wand.

It's just that if I had my druthers, I'd give it to Snape.