Snape's Psycology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?

[Beatrice23]

No: HPFGUIDX 187438

> Montavilla47:
> Harry does defend the Prince, but he also feels betrayed by the Prince, IIRC, 
> like a favorite pet who suddenly turned savage.
> 
> Harry's reaction does show remorse at the moment, and it speaks well for
> Harry.  But I'm not sure it speaks better for him than most normal people
> in that situation.  I know that Draco shows no remorse when he breaks
> Harry's nose in the train at the beginning of the year, but I'd be willing to
> bet that if Harry had suddenly started bleeding in a dozen places, Draco
> would have been just as horrified.

Beatrice:  Maybe.  But that is a big maybe.  I was hoping to see a better ending for Draco myself.  Thought I saw a glimmer in the Malfoy Manor chapter, but lost complete faith in him at the end of the novel.  

> Montavilla47:Quite probably, teen!Snape would have been just as horrified if his
> spell had produced that reaction.  
> 
> The only analogous situation that I can think of with Snape was 
> when he was ten and Petunia was hit--and he denied doing it.  But
> I don't think the situations are really close enough, either in how they
> came about, the outcomes, or the maturity level of the participants to 
> make a good comparison.

Beatrice:  yeah, somehow I don't think so.  First, it seems that Snape may actually be the author of that particular spell.  I make this assumption purely on the basis that most of the notes in the margins of that text seem to be of his own discoveries and when Harry attempts to use levicorpus against him after DD's death Snape screams at him that he is just like his father who used his (Snape's) own spells against him... Even if Snape didn't create the spell, he knows what it does as he designates it "for enemies."

 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Yes, but Snape *is* a soldier and an adult.  He is also an 
> accomplished dueler.  By the way, I didn't notice him 
> running away or making excuses in that broom battle.

Beatrice:  No, how could we when we see precious little of him in DH.  Although you could read Snape's inclusion of the memory to Harry a way of defending that particular action...

> Montavilla47:
> But, there are still only three Unforgivable spells, as specified by the 
> author.  And Sectumsempra, while designated "Dark" by its creator 
> (which makes it "Dark" to me), is not one of those spells.  If 
> Sectumsempra were meant to be as dire as an Unforgivable, then 
> I don't think JKR would have designated those three spells as 
> especially bad.

Beatrice:  Well, it may not give you an "automatic" life sentence in Azkaban like the other three spells, but it might be considered a crime depending on the circumstances.

> > > Montavilla47:
> > > There are a number of Snape fans who feel that Snape's life
> > > has been hogtied by his obligation to Dumbledore--an obligation 
> > > motivated by a desire to protect, not a desire for vengeance.
> > 

> 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I'm not sure I understand what this larger pattern of character
> development is.  Are you making a distinction between characters
> who lose people they love--and are unable to love again, and those
> characters who are consumed with vengeance?


Beatrice: okay, but let's be blunt here.  What if LV decided that it was Neville Longbottom who was the true threat?   Would there even be a story?  Would Snape be simply indifferent to their plight?  Their suffering?  Would he ever have turned from his Death Eater ideology?

> 
> Montavilla47:I would put Snape into the first category, but not into the second.
> I see Snape as consumed with *responsibility*, but not with 
> vengeance.  If anything, vengeance is an obstacle that he must
> try (and sometimes, but always fail) to overcome into order to 
> fulfill the responsibility he took on when he asked for Dumbledore's
> help.
>

> Montavilla47:
> I think Snape agreed with the ideology to a certain extent in his youth.  
> At the very least, he didn't *disagree* with it--and only made the exception
> for Lily.  But it seems the intention to show that he *disagreed* with it 
> at the end of the book, when he told Phineas Nigellus not to use the word
> "mudblood."

Beatrice:  There are lots of people who don't "disagree" with the ideology, but they didn't choose to become Death Eaters.  Snape chooses to be in LV's inner most circle, not simply to be a sympathizer on the sidelines.
> 
> Montavilla47:But, again, I don't see the evidence that Snape *hated* either muggles
> or muggle-born.  What I see is that Snape was *indifferent* about the 
> fates of people he didn't specifically love (i.e., Lily).  It's not his *hatred*
> that disgusts Dumbledore.  It's his *indifference.*

Beatrice:  And how many people were indifferent to the plight of Jews in the 1930's and 1940's in Europe?  How many people are indifferent to Rwanda?  Crotia?  IMO, indifference is just as bad if not worse.


> Montavilla47:
> Except for Mr. Roberts and his family, the Dursleys are the
> only Muggles we ever see in the series.  Except for saving 
> Dudley's life (and Harry was saving his own life as much as 
> he was saving Dudley's at that point), Harry never does a 
> single act of kindness for any muggle.

Beatrice:  Well, in his small part of the muggle world he is despised and looked at with fear.  At any rate, we don't see much of any interaction in the muggle world for Harry probably because it is less interesting to the narrative of the story.
> 
> Montavilla47:And he steals the identifies of two muggles without any
> respect for their feelings on the subject.  I wouldn't say
> that Harry dislikes muggles in general, but I don't see a 
> lot of love there.

Beatrice:  I think that you are reaching here for something negative, but I find this far from compelling.  Harry is hardly using their credit cards to buy internet porn or go on holiday.  He is using a disguise to save his life.
> 
> > > Beatrice:
> > > When if ever does Snape show compassion for anyone other than himself and Lily? 
> > > 
> > > Montavilla47:
> > > When he swears an unbreakable vow to Narcissa to protect her son.  In 
> > > contrast to Dumbledore, Snape vows to protect Draco without asking 
> > > anything in return.
> > 
> > Beatrice:  On DD's orders.  We know that DD has already injured his hand when Snape make the unbreakable vow from (DH) and DD gives Snape his orders on the night that he is injured.  AND DD's orders are as follows; Stay undercover as a DE, do whatever you need to to make it believable; Kill DD to save Draco's soul; protect Draco Malfoy from LV and from himself (as he is still just a young man and may live to regret his choices); etc.  There is more but these are the most important points.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> But DD doesn't not order Snape to swear an Unbreakable Vow.  By making
> that vow, Snape is endangering his cover--if Voldemort were to find out,
> then it could cause Snape problems.  

Beatrice:  Actually, I think he is deepening his cover here.  Snape indicates to DD that LV intends Snape to be the one to kill DD in the end.  Snape makes the unbreakable vow because it is essentially the same promise he has already made to DD AND because it helps Bellatrix to trust him more.  Bellatrix doubts Snapes loyalty and his willingness to make the unbreakable vow puts paid to many of her doubts.  Also, I thought that perhaps this is another way for LV to test Snape's loyalty.  As he trusts no one, perhaps he would be pleased to have Narcissa swear to this as her ends are also LV's ends.


> 
> Montavilla47:
> Does it really matter if you love only one person, as long as you
> love?  Snape may be damaged, but I don't think that necessarily
> makes him unworthy of the responsibility of the Elder Wand.

Beatrice:  As to the first question, no.  But that is not the question of the post the question is who is more worthy?  A man who can only love one person and lives his life trying to make right the events that he puts into motion that ultimately cause the death of the one person he loves?  Or a man who life is all about loving, sacrifice, freeing other people, and creating friendship?

> Montavilla47:Mind you, I think Harry is a lot more "worthy" at the end of the
> story than he was, say, at the end of HBP.  And I don't think he 
> would be a bad person to hold the wand.
> 
> It's just that if I had my druthers, I'd give it to Snape.
>

Beatrice;  But if you had your druthers then ultimately the wand would end up mastered by Voldemort as he kills Snape for that purpose.