Draco and Intent: Re: Snape and Harry's Sadism (was: Lack of re-examination)

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 186826

Carol earlier:
> >
> > The actions are canonically about a week apart. (See "The Prince's Tale." Given his detailed responses on the DADA exam, which occurs just before SWM, and his studying of the test after he's taken it, I think it's safe to say that Severus has spent most of that week studying for his OWLs. He has done nothing to antagonize Sirius and James, who merely say "Look who it is" before they sneak up on him and attack him without provocation.
> >
> > There's no canon whatever to indicate that Severus has fought his rescuer--at least not until that rescuer attacks him two on one.
> >
> > Carol, whose position in the previous post remains unchanged
> 
> Shelley:
> Are you assuming then, that when everyone was questioned about that night, that Snape didn't point a finger at James and crew to say "Look what they did to me- I could have been killed!" 

Carol responds:
Of course not. I'm quite sure that's what he said to Dumbledore. He wouldn't have talked about it to anyone else.

Shelley:
> On the contrary, I see no cannon at all that says that Snape changed his mind only after being tormented several more times, that he was ok at first and only grew bitter at a later date. I see cannon that from the get-go, he's pissed as hell that this crew set him up, and he's even more angry when James gets an award for it which he thinks is totally out of place. 

Carol responds:
What award? We don't know whether MWPP received detention or what happened to them, but I don't recall an award. Of course, he's angry that Sirius set him up, but he's not making a big deal of it at that point. All the canon evidence shows that he's absorbed in his exams. Even when he talks to Lily, who says that he ought to be grateful and that she doesn't believe his werewolf theory, his main concern is that she not regard James as a noble hero. He's happy that she views him as an arrogant toerag. He's not seeking revenge or absorbed in a grudge at that point. What changes things and makes him really angry is SWM itself--and especially the consequences of his own words in calling Lily a "Mudblood." That's when all the anger and the grudges set in.  

Shelley:
> I see no cannon of a mind change only after torment, because why would they need to torment him if he was totally grateful and thankful for the rescue?


Carol: I never said that he was thankful and grateful for his rescue. Why should he be? It was done for selfish reasons.

Shelley:
> Nope, I see it totally in character for Snape to be an ungrateful git who only wanted to see the others punished for what they did, and angry when the headmaster didn't see things his way. I just can't see the change in Snape after more teasings and torment....it just doesn't fit with cannon as far as I've read it.
>
Carol responds:
I didn't say that Snape was okay at first with being rescued and only grew bitter at a later date. He thought from the beginning (rightly) that James rescued him only to keep himself and his friends out of trouble. (Imagine what would have happened to them, especially Sirius and Remus, if Severus had actually been bitten.) He thinks, rightly or wrongly, that Sirius tried to murder him, but we only hear that in PoA, not in "The Prince's Tale," so he may well have seen things in a darker light after SWM (or after Sirius supposedly betrayed the Potters to their deaths).

I'm saying that Severus has no reason to befriend or even be grateful to James, who is still his enemy and follows up his "noble" rescue by publicly attacking and humiliating Severus one on one. Unlike Draco, Severus has little reason to be grateful. True, his life was saved, or he was prevented from becoming a werewolf, but not because James cared about *him* in any way or even valued his life as a fellow human being. Instead, he has to bear the humiliation of having been rescued by his enemy without even being able to tell anyone what he was rescued *from.* (I suppose that his fellow students think it was the Whomping Willow. Or maybe no one except a few Gryffindors know about it. Certainly, Severus isn't going to go around talking about it. My guess, and, yes, it's only a guess, is that Lily heard about it from Sirius. What little she knows sounds like his version of the events.)

My original point was to contrast James with Harry, who rescued Draco for noble reasons in contrast to James's selfish motives, and Severus with Draco, who had more reason than Severus did to be grateful to his rescuer. Can you imagine *Harry* publicly humiliating and tormenting Draco after rescuing him? I can't. Lily is right. James is an arrogant toerag--at least while he's at Hogwarts.

Carol, who can think of nothing more humiliating than being first rescued and then publicly tormented by your worst enemy (though, of course, that's not why the incident is Snape's worst memory)