What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 187009

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Of course, if Snape had had his way and Voldemort had merely Stunned Lily, Harry would have died because there would have been no Love magic. We'd have just had an angry, unhappy Lily and no story. 
> 
> Pippin:
> I'm not sure this holds up. What matters is Lily's willingness to die if she didn't stand aside, not whether Voldemort actually killed her. Harry makes this clear.
> 
> "I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people--"
> "But you did not!"
> "--I meant to, and that's what did it. I've done what my mother did."
> --DH ch 36
> 
> Lily didn't just instinctively throw herself in the way, as any mother might have done. She consciously cast her life between them, and though she couldn't know for certain it would have a magical effect, I think part of the magic came from her intention that it would. She chose not only to die, but to trust  love alone to defend her son.
> 
> There would have been no love magic if Lily had not believed she could save herself by stepping aside, and Snape is responsible for seeing that she had that choice. But if Voldemort had honored his promise and simply stunned her when she refused to step aside, I think the magic would have worked just the same. 

Montavilla47:

Okay... I'm not exactly going to disagree because to my mind the
important distinction was that Lily had a *choice* in the matter.

But how many people willingly died to keep Voldemort from
hurting other people?  Do those deaths not matter because
the people who died weren't relying on love to save others, but 
on their wands to do it?

Instead, all they had to do was believe in love?   If the first
person Voldemort killed had simply believed that allowing
him or herself to be killed without resisting would protect
everyone else in the world, would we never have gotten the
first war at all?

I think there was another factor floating around in there and
that Voldemort's broken promise to Snape.  

Bear with me, because I'm heading into the soupy swamps of 
speculation here....

Remember when Dumbledore gets all dreamy and philosophical
about that bond that's created when one wizard saves the life
of another one?

Remember how we all theorized that Snape was under a life
debt to James because of the Prank?

And that Unbreakable Vow which causes you to die if you break it?

What if Snape didn't ask for Voldemort to spare Lily once 
Voldemort decided to target the Potters?  What if he asked the 
Dark Lord to spare her earlier on?  Say, when he first brought
the Prophecy to him?

Perhaps Voldemort was more grateful to learn about that Prophecy
than we think--and the promise to spare Lily was an implicit tit-
for-tat.  (IOW, "You, Snape, have saved me from a deadly danger by
telling me this, in return, I promise that this woman you "desire" 
is safe from our campaign.")

Of course, when Voldemort realizes that their child is the one in
the Prophecy, he targets the Potters and sets up one part of the 
trigger.  The other part is the choice that Lily makes.

And then it makes more sense that Snape distrusts Voldemort's
promise and goes to Dumbledore.  A lot more sense (to my mind)
than Snape asking Voldemort to spare her *after* he's definitely
targeted them.  Because, how dumb would he have to be to 
believe for a second that Voldemort would let in her live in 
those circumstances?

As for Harry's death making the difference in the final battle,
I have to accept that that's what happens--even though I don't 
find it as clearcut as Harry does.  (It's like that Elder Wand that 
doesn't work as well as Voldemort expects... when it seems to us
readers to be working perfectly well.)

But in any case, the effect of Harry's sacrifice could either be
from the Harry/Voldemort blood/mind/soul connection (which
is unique to them), or because Voldemort again breaks his 
promise to leave the castle alone if Harry will come to him
in the woods.

Or because Harry does the Aslan thing and goes specifically to 
die. But, and maybe this is a small distinction, it seems like 
Harry is going to die because he knows that it will make 
Voldemort more vulnerable, but Voldemort is still going to be
immortal at that point.  He didn't kill the snake and thus his 
death is only taking people closer to defeating Voldemort.

He isn't trusting that his death is going to protect others.
He isn't trusting, as you say Lily did, in love alone.