What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 187013

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
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> 
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
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> > 
> > So, I'm not saying that it was Snape and Voldemort who triggered the 
> > special blood protection.  It was Snape's request, *plus* Voldemort's 
> > agreement to that request, *plus* Lily's refusal to step aside, *plus*
> > Voldemort's breaking his word to Snape that triggered the magic.
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> Potioncat:
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> Lily wasn't just trying to protect Harry, she offered to take his place. She didn't have to die. (Uh-oh, now we have Lily as a Christ figure, and her name only strengthens the image.)
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> How does Harry's sacrifice in DH compare to Lily's? Because it seems that also had an effect on LV's magic against the Hogwarts army.
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> Potioncat, wishing she could pour through canon and take a bigger part in this thread
>
Carol responds:
Right. She was trying to take his place, to die instead of Harry. But that only works if she has the choice of living or dying, just as Harry had the choice of walking into the forest to face Voldemort or not and raising his wand or not. It's the choice that makes it a sacrifice. And neither Harry, who found out through Snape's memories that he had to sacrifice himself if he wanted to defeat Voldemort, nor Lily, who was given the choice to live or die because of Snape's request to Voldemort, could have sacrificed themselves without Snape's contribution to the chain of events.

None of which takes away from the power of either sacrifice. And Snape, of course, would have been happier if Lily hadn't made hers.

All I'm saying is that if some other DE had witnessed the Prophecy and reported it to Voldemort, Snape either would not have known about it or any request he made to LV to spare Lily would have been ignored. The other DE certainly would not have made such a request. Snape's request sets up Lily's choice, which she would not have had otherwise. And her choice to die rather than live sets up the ancient magic that backfires on Voldemort when he tries to kill the son she died to protect.

That's what Dumbledore means when he tells young Potions master Snape "You know how and why she died" and it's how he's able to persuade Snape to protect Harry so her sacrifice won't be in vain. But she could not have made that sacrifice, as I think Snape knows (and DD certainly knows) if Snape hadn't made that request of Voldemort in the first place.

IOW, that's why it's so important that Snape and no one other DE witnessed part of the Prophecy and reported it to Voldemort. (Of course, the Secret Keeper part of the plot wouldn't have happened, either, if Snape hadn't gone to Dumbledore.) He's woven intricately into the plot from the beginning. Take away Snape and you have either no story or a very different story. Setting aside his later promise to protect Harry so that Lily's sacrifice won't have been in vain, which effects the plot of the stories but not the events at Godric's Hollow, all of his actions in that short span of time--overhearing and reporting the Prophecy, regretting his part in it and begging Voldemort to spare Lily, going to Dumbledore and promising to do "anything" if he protects them, which leads to the Fidelius Charm and the fatal choice by the Potters to make Peter the SK--lead, through unintended consequences, to Harry's becoming the Chosen One.

It's not just that events would be different had DE!Snape not reported the Prophecy and Voldemort not acted on it. They would have been different if Lucius Malfoy or Macnair or Mulciber or any DE besides Snape had overheard it. No other DE would have gone to Voldemort to beg him to spare Lily, giving her and her alone the choice to live, with consequences intended by none of the participants, including Lily herself. (Obviously, Snape wasn't deliberately setting up ancient magic that would save Harry and not Lily, which was contrary to his own hopes and intentions (sparing Lily), any more than Voldemort or Lily herself knew what would happen. Had Voldemort known it, he'd have kept his promise to Snape and let her live! And Lily couldn't have known it either since no one had survived the Killing Curse before.) And no other DE would have gone to Dumbledore to beg for Lily's safety, feeling such deep remorse that he risked his life from that point on to work with Dumbledore. (Imagine DD hiring any other DE to teach at Hogwarts!) And, apparently, had that particular young DE not gone to Dumbledore to beg him to spare Lily, DD would not have sent the Potters into hiding or (a year or so later) suggested the Fidelius charm.

Take away Snape and the events in the middle of "The Prince's Tale," and the whole edifice collapses. But, then, as I said earlier, if Voldemort had kept rather than broken his promise to Snape, we'd have no story, either.

Carol, who sees some plot holes in this structure in terms of timing but thinks it's beautiful in terms of character interrelationships, irony, unintended consequences on more than one level, and the importance of choice in relation to sacrifice and the power of Love