What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 187026

Montavilla47:

We see Narcissa *risking* her life for simply the chance to see her
son again.

Do you believe that she wouldn't have made the same choice Lily
did had she been in the same circumstances? Do you believe that
she, or Petunia, wouldn't have refused the choice to step aside so
that Voldemort could kill her son? Did you see that mother in
Bulgaria step aside to save herself and leave her children vulnerable? <SNIP>

Alla:

Sure Narcissa was risking her life, I still would not put what she did on the same level as Lily, not to say that she would not have done it, I think any *normal* mother would protect her child with her life. My point is that I do not see anybody else in the book doing what Lily did, I am sure given the chance they would, just that author did not show it.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
I agree that we don't know what triggered the magic. I'll agree that it
could have been Lily's choice alone. But she would not have had that
choice if the other events hadn't occurred. <SNIP>

Alla:
Sure, had the prophecy not being given to Voldemort she may not ever *needed* that choice and had Snape not gone to Voldemort to bargain for her life, Voldemort could have just killed her. I am only wondering what triggered the spell, the circumstances around it are canon.


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
This isn't a story in which Lily is offered the choice to step
aside because she has information Voldemort wants or
because she's so darn pretty he'd like to take her away to
his lair. It's a story in which Lily is offered the choice because
her childhood friend still loves her even though he's
supposed to hate her.

Which brings it all back to Love. With a capital Luh.


Alla:

As an aside of the sorts, do you really consider what Snape did to Lily to be story about love?

I mean putting aside  my belief that without Snape giving the prophecy to Voldemort they may not have needed any hiding, any protection and may have survived, do you think that the fact that he went to ask for her life at first to *Voldemort* not *Dumbledore* is story about love?

When I first read it, I think I felt as if I want to take a shower, so EWWWWW this made me feel. I mean, if Snape went straight to Dumbledore, sure this would have been about atonement and about trying to save the woman he still loves for me.

But he went to Voldemort, what exactly Snape thought that he will do? What if Voldemort indeed made sure that Lily survived? Did Snape think that Lily will rush in his arms, what with her husband and baby's graves are still fresh? It tells me how little Snape respected Lily, how he did not give a flying fig about her choices, about her family. It tells me that it was all about Snape and what he wanted.

I am speculating of course, but I believe I am speculating based on the canon facts, after all we know that Snape still only wants Dumbledore to save Lily till Dumbledore chastises him.

No, I am not saying that Snape needed to love James and Harry, but I *am* saying that if he truly loved Lily, he may have given more thought about what Lily would have wanted and that something most definitely included her husband and baby being alive.

Maybe Snape hoped that he would put Lily under Imperio and she would become his slave or something?

As another aside, the fact that Voldemort was even willing to consider Snape's request tells me more about his implied crimes as Death Eater than anything else. I mean, how valuable Snape has to be to Voldemort at twenty something if he would truly agree to not kill somebody for him.

And this is actually one of the reasons that I cannot buy your speculation that their agreement actually contributed to the spell itself.

I just feel that this magic is something that is incredibly *good* in nature and Snape's agreement with Voldemort is something too selfish and evil to contribute to the spell of that power.

But of course I cannot argue against it, I am just explaining why it does not work for me.

Snape certainly contributed to circumstances, I just disagree that he is in any way contributed to magic itself  IMO.

Pippin:
Logically, it should work. But the Potterverse isn't all about logic. It's all
about "the incalculable power" of acts of need and valor. I wouldn't want to say
that Snape's attempts to save Lily didn't fall into that category. Voldemort
didn't know or care that Snape's request was driven by love, but that's not to
say that the magic wouldn't know. It might play into Voldemort's willingness to
offer a choice, and even Lily's belief that she had a choice. <SNIP>

Alla:

Right, well see above, I do not know if magic will respect much Snape's attempt to bargain for Lily's life with Voldemort, but of course we are just speculating here, I am just so curious what started this spell, but I do think that it was left ambiguous on purpose IMO.