What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 187015

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Of course, if Snape had had his way and Voldemort had merely Stunned Lily, Harry would have died because there would have been no Love magic. We'd have just had an angry, unhappy Lily and no story. 
> 
> Pippin:
> I'm not sure this holds up. What matters is Lily's willingness to die if she didn't stand aside, not whether Voldemort actually killed her. Harry makes this clear.
> 
> "I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people--"
> "But you did not!"
> "--I meant to, and that's what did it. I've done what my mother did."
> --DH ch 36
> 
> Lily didn't just instinctively throw herself in the way, as any mother might have done. She consciously cast her life between them, and though she couldn't know for certain it would have a magical effect, I think part of the magic came from her intention that it would. She chose not only to die, but to trust  love alone to defend her son.
> 
> There would have been no love magic if Lily had not believed she could save herself by stepping aside, and Snape is responsible for seeing that she had that choice. But if Voldemort had honored his promise and simply stunned her when she refused to step aside, I think the magic would have worked just the same. 
> 
> Pippin
>
Carol responds:

Hm. It's a minor point. My main point was the one you concede here, that Snape's request made her choice to sacrifice herself possible. But I think that the sacrifice itself is actually needed. Harry did step up wandlessly to receive an AK that would have killed him had it not been for the shared drop of blood. Merely intending to do that and being Stunned instead would not have served the purpose. And I can't see Lily's blood magically protecting Harry if she hadn't died herself. Why would the AK have rebounded if she hadn't actually died for him? And certainly, there would have been no blood protection (and no need for it) if she had lived. Voldemort himself says that "the woman's foolish sacrifice" protected Harry. I don't think that would have happened if Lily hadn't died.

The irony is that Voldemort's "prudent" act of killing all three, violating his promise to Snape, isn't prudent at all. He should merely have Stunned her, ignoring her choice to die and preventing her sacrifice. Instead, he broke his promise to Snape and accepted her choice to die in place of her son, only to dishonor her choice by attempting to kill the son, too. That, I think, is what triggered the magic. She chose to die *instead* of Harry, not *along with* Harry. Voldemort "prudently" decided to kill the whole family (James being already dead and not affecting the outcome one way or the other), thereby bringing about his own downfall.

IOW, Lily, unlike Harry, actually had to die for her choice to take effect. The intention to die for Harry would not, IMO, have sufficed.

Carol, who sees no reason for the AK to backfire on LV if LV had not violated an implied magical contract with Lily, her life for Harry's