What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 187019

Pippin:
We know that Dumbledore wanted to inspire Harry with ideals of sacrifice and
noblesse oblige. I won't say that Dumbledore didn't believe that James and Lily
were noble. But I think they got a lot nobler after they were dead <g>.

Montavilla47:
I clipped just this bit of your post to put in this reply to say that I 
completely agree with you about James and Lily.  

> Montavilla:
> > Instead, all they had to do was believe in love?   If the first
> > person Voldemort killed had simply believed that allowing
> > him or herself to be killed without resisting would protect
> > everyone else in the world, would we never have gotten the
> > first war at all?
> 
> Pippin:
> Maybe, if they thought they could escape and yet *chose* to face Voldemort and die, thereby placing protection on those whom they loved,  that would have invoked love magic. But to protect everyone, they would have had to have been willing to die for everyone.  I don't think it's "scientific" -- choice + love magic + love = protection. I think a lot depends on the courage and moral certainty of the person who invokes the power.

Montavilla47:

That an interesting idea.  I'm not sure I like it, though--just because 
it seems like the power of invoking magic is then coming from 
confidence more than anything else.  And that just doesn't sit well
with me asthetically.  It means that nervous, insecure people are
inherently powerless.

Maybe they are, but I don't really like that as a moral. :)


> Montavilla:
> Because, how dumb would he have to be to  believe for a second that Voldemort would let in her live in  those circumstances?
> 
> Pippin:
> Voldemort had been trying to recruit Lily and James, so Snape would have thought she was safe until he found out that Voldemort thought Harry was the prophecy child. And as we see, Voldemort wasn't hard over on killing Lily. But Snape was probably aware that Voldemort was capricious and would not hesitate to kill or break his promises on a whim.

Montavilla47:
He'd been trying to recuit them (as JKR mentioned in an interview),
but he'd also been trying to kill them, unless the "defied three times"
phrase refers to them refusing to be recruited three times rather than 
escaping death at his hands three times.

My understanding was that it meant that James and Lily had narrowed
avoided being killed on three occasions, and that the Longbottoms had
also done so.

And, since Lily and James were members of the Order of the Phoenix,
a group dedicated to fighting the Death Eaters, I don't think Snape
could have been very confident of Lily's safety at any time.



> Montavilla:
> > He isn't trusting that his death is going to protect others.
> > He isn't trusting, as you say Lily did, in love alone.
> >
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> But he is! We just don't find out about it until he tells Voldemort what he did. I don't think it's about Voldemort breaking his promises, though that's an interesting idea. 
> 

Montavilla47:
As long you aren't dismissing it out of hand, I'm happy.  As I 
said, it's purely speculative.