Snape and Lucius was James and Intent And Snape

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 187083

Marion wrote:
<snip>
> Lucius Malfoy calls Dumbledore a fool who ruined Hogwarts, and I happen to think he was right. Dumbledore was a dreadful headmaster. During his reign of Hogwarts several students died (Myrtle, Cedric), all of which could've been prevented if only Dumbledore had seen fit to share information <snip>

Carol responds:
Can you explain how Cedric's death could have been explained if DD had shared information? Unfortunately for Cedric, DD had not yet realized that Fake!Moody was a DE imposter. As for Myrtle, DD was the Transfiguration teacher (and presumably Head of Gryffindor House) at that time. He may have been assistant headmaster considering that he's the one who was sent to inform Tom Riddle that his name was down for Hogwarts. But the headmaster at the time was the inept Armando Dippet, who was deceived by Tom Riddle's charm.

Marion:
> Dumbledore employed dreadful, ineffective, dangereous teachers (a ghost for History, Quirrell, Barty Crouch, Hagrid, Trelawny.. the list goes on and on). We know why Dumbles is such a dreadful Headmaster: he just doesn't care about the children being taught anything. He uses Hogwarts as his personal headquarters, where he can influence gullibe childeren to think that he knows best and indoctrinate them into his personal belief, the belief that Ambition is the greatest evil evah.

Carol responds:
Granted, he employs ineffective and sometimes dangerous teachers. Why he doesn't dismiss Professor Binns, I don't know. Maybe he can't. Trelawney is employed for her own protection to teach a subject that he (perhaps wrongly?) considers to be useless. Later, he employs Firenze to co-teach the same subject for the same reason. Hagrid, too, is employed for his own protection (though the students in COMC would have been better off with the highly competent substitute whose name I can't remember; Hagrid should, IMO, have remained as gamekeeper and "keeper of the keys and gates" or whatever he's called in SS/PS. And filch, whom you don't mention, is employed as groundskeeper for much the same reason; he's a Squib, and DD has given him semiuseful employment in the WW. (Fortunately, he's also prevented from using "the old punishments" apparently used by Filch's predecessor, the one whose whipping left Arthur Weasley scarred for life.) And he employs Snape, his valuable spy/counterspy, as Potions teacher, trusting (rightly) that he will not harm the students and actually knows his subject. (He keeps him away from the DADA class for good reason, but not the one he gave young Snape.) The curse on the DADA class is Voldemort's fault, not DD's. He finally resorts to allowing Umbridge to teach DADA because (IMO) it's not yet time to allow Snape to teach it and he has no other option.

Marion: 
> I very much doubt that Slytherin was stamped 'House of Evil' before Dumbledore got his bum on the headmaster chair, but as soon as he is in power, things subtly change, until it's become normal to think that if it's Slytherin, their motives must be Evil.

Carol responds:
I agree that Slytherin was not the House of Evil when Slughorn was there, though it must have had a reputation as a House that valued blood status even then. Nor would Slughorn as HoH have inspired anyone to evil. Unfortunately for him, a certain charming young Dark Wizard in the making had been Sorted into Slytherin House and was gathering followers impressed by his ability to speak Parseltongue (and perhaps by other powers that Tom mentions in his first encounter with DD) and, later, by his proof that he was the Heir of Slytherin (opening the Cos and releasing the Basilisk, killing a Muggle-born). That incident alone could not have helped the reputation of Slytherin House. And many people must have noticed that, with the presumed exception of Sirius Black, most of LV's followers, including those who claimed that they'd been Imperio'd, came from Slytherin. If anything changed Slytherin's reputation from a bunch of ambitious, blood-conscious snobs (who could nevertheless be cheerful and somewhat likeable like Slughorn) to Dark-Magic-loving, "Mudblood"-hating bigots likely to join the DEs when they left Hogwarts, it was Riddle/Voldemort, not Dumbledore.

Marion: 
> Even the people on this list have fallen into this trap. It never ceases to amaze me how people on this list can 'doublethink' into believing that a character that we see to hesitate to harm children (in the Ministry raid), to want to get rid of Dumbledore as Headmaster (and for very good reasons) and to protect their family and loved ones whilst at the same time thwarting the Dark Lord, that this character is somehow an evil bully who wants to take over the world,

Carol:
I assume that you're speaking of Lucius Malfoy, who does indeed tell Bellatrix not to hurt Harry *while he's carrying the Prophecy orb.* However, let's look at some of the other things he says during the MoM raid (which he handled with relative efficiency until the Order arrived, though I wonder what Theo Nott would think of his ruthless abandonment of the injured Nott Sr. if he knew about it).

"Don't do anything," he says to Bellatrix. "*Not yet.*"

"Now give me the prophecy," he says to Harry, "or we start using wands. <snip commentary> Hand over the prophecy and no one need get hurt."

"I TOLD YOU, NO!" he yells at Bellatrix. "If you smash it--"

Clearly, the only thing deterring Lucius from harming Harry and company is fear of punishment if the Prophecy orb is destroyed (a fear that proves to be quite valid). He later blocks Bellatrix's Stupefy, aimed at Harry for calling LV a Half-Blood, for the same reason.

However, he does nothing when Bellatrix steps forward intending to torture "the smallest one" (Ginny). (Bellatrix, too, is deterred by Harry's threat to smash the Prophecy orb. She may be more erratic and fanatical than Lucius, but they have the same goal--retrieve the Prophecy orb for the Dark Lord so he can kill Harry Potter.)

"DO NOT ATTACK! WE NEED THE PROPHECY!" and "WAIT UNTIL WE'VE GOT THE PROPHECY!" make Lucius's motive crystal clear. He's not being merciful; he's being (relatively) sensible and self-preserving but at the same time loyal to LV, whom he knows quite well wants Harry dead, preferably by his own hand. He (Lucius) was in the graveyard, after all.

He tells Harry not to play games and informs him that the Dark Lord wondered why he didn't come running to find out the wording of the Prophecy. He seems at this point incredulously delighted at Harry's naivete. He's also, of course, providing useful information to Harry about LV's motives and how the Hall of Prophecy works, but that's not his intention. He probably thinks that Harry will be dead or in LV's hands soon, so it doesn't matter. Either that or he's stalling for time.

Once the kids have smashed the shelves and temporarily escaped, he regroups the disorganized DEs, ordering them to leave the injured Nott, and pairs himself with Mulciber, who, according to Lily, was using or trying to use Dark Magic in fifth year and who, according to Karkaroff, is an Imperio specialist. He tells the others to "be gentle with Potter *until we've got the prophecy. *You can kill the others if necessary.*"

Just before the Order members show up, he tells Harry that his race is run and orders him to give him the prophecy (the murderer Dolohov's wand is pointed straight at Harry's face and the other eight are surrounding him). When Neville tries to support Harry, a DE seizes him and Lucius says "Your grandmother is used to losing family members to the Dark Lord. Your death will not come as a great shock." He makes no move to stop Bellatrix, who Crucio'd Neville's parents into insanity (along with her followers) from giving Neville a taste of the same medicine. At that point, Harry is ready to give the prophecy orb to Lucius, but the Order arrives.

We don't see much of Lucius in the fight that follows because Tonks immediately Stuns him. When he recovers, however, he lunges at Harry, presses his wand hard into Harry's ribs, and snarls at him to give him the Prophecy. Harry tosses the orb to Neville and Lucius points his wand at him instead, only to be blasted off Harry by Harry's Impedimenta. He aims his wand at Harry and Neville again (as if he can't make up his mind which to aim at) but Lupin jumps between them. Someone, probably Lucius, fires a spell at Harry but misses. At that point, Neville drops the Prophecy, DD arrives, and the battle is over for Lucius.

A character who hesitates to harm children? Somehow, that's not the picture I get of Lucius. As for the scene in "Malfoy Manor," he just wants to be sure that the swollen-faced kid really is Harry Potter before he summons LV and gets punished yet again.

Marion:

> whilst at the sametime doublethinking themselves into the firm belief that a schoolyard bully who with his group of cronies regularly hexes those he doesn't like (giant slugs, anyone), who hexes helpless squibs in the back (Langlock? Filch?) and who is proud of the fact that he can actually summon the evil and wish to torture to Crucio, to think that this is a 'good person'.

Carol:
You make Harry sound like James, who is indeed a schoolyard bully who (AFAWK) only saved Severus to keep himself and his friends out of trouble (but hardly comparable to a DE willing to kill and torture kids to retrieve a Prophecy orb so the Dark Lord can kill the Boy who Lived). As for Harry, wasn't it Ron who tried to make Draco "Eat slugs"? I agree that on occasion, Harry and his friends act with inadequate provocation. I agree that it was wrong to use Langlock on the defenseless Filch and I disapprove of the Crucio of even so evil a person as Amycus Carrow. But you're disregarding a lot of things that Harry did, selflessly rescuing Ginny in Cos, for example, and sacrificing himself to save the WW in DH (not knowing that he's not going to die).

Harry, as JKR takes pains to point out, isn't perfect. He misjudges people. He makes mistakes. He takes a long time to learn to how to stop seeking revenge and to forgive. But, at heart, he's essentially a good person despite these flaws.

Lucius Malfoy, however, is interested primarily in himself. He gives the diary to Ginny knowing full well that it will release the Basilisk and endanger the students. He manipulates others through threats and bribery. And he's perfectly happy serving Voldemort (and teaching his son to be a Voldie disciple, too) as long as he has a position of power and authority as LV's right-hand man. (It might be worthwhile to contrast him with Snape, who puts that same position to very different uses.)

I understand that you don't like Dumbledore, who is unquestionably manipulative and secretive. Evidently, you don't like Harry much, either. :-) And I certainly have reservations of my own about some of their actions and some of JKR's apparent values (pleasure in punishing characters she doesn't like). But I don't think you're going to persuade anyone that Harry is as much of a bully as Lucius Malfoy or that Lucius Malfoy is nothing but a loving father who only wants to rid Hogwarts of a foolish old headmaster by accusing those who disagree with you of "doublethink."

Carol, not answering the last point because the post is too long already