Courtly love in Potterverse LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 187159

Julie:
We don't really have any evidence either way (whether Uncle Algie cared if
Neville was hurt or killed should he not have magic, or whether Algie would have
thrown out a cushioning charm or similar at the last moment). But Uncle Algie
did choose a method that put Neville's life in actual danger, rather than making
Neville only *think* he was in actual danger. <SNIP>

Alla:

Actually if what Zanooda says is true (and I completely forgotten it, sorry Zanooda am not doubting you, just do not have PoA to get a quote) uncle Algie did not choose anything at all, it was an accident, so yes, I think we do have evidence.

Even if it was not an accident, uncle Algie did not go to Dark wizard and told him to go and test Neville's magic and kill him if he is not magical, right?


Julie:
<SNIP>
(I would have liked this version better too, as it would have fit with my
original conception of Dumbledore as someone who preferred to shame and
manipulate with gentle reprimands rather than harsh, direct attacks.) <SNIP>

Alla:

LOL! But it would make Snape actually care about the life of the baby, but since JKR wanted to show that he did not, I do not see how this version could have played out. I have no problems with Dumbledore's behavior at their first meeting; I think Snape deserved everything Dumbledore said and more. I have lots of problems with Dumbledore's behavior on their second meeting, I think he behaved as complete bastard, but I still think Snape deserved everything Dumbledore said and more.

Julie.
My point is, Snape knows instinctively that Dumbledore, beacon of the light
side, is never going to agree to save Lily without also saving James and Harry.
<SNIP>

Alla:

LOL again, sorry. So, if Snape *knows instinctively*, why is he not asking it out loud?

Julie:
<SNIP>
Even so, I'm not sure it matters. Snape was a willing Death Eater, even if he
joined them more to gain respect and power, and perhaps to seek revenge against
those who'd wronged him, than because he had any deep-seated belief in Pureblood
superiority or any real desire to torture and kill Muggles.

Alla:

Oh I agree that it does not matter because Snape was a willing Death Eater of course. I do not think that Snape did not have beliefs in Pureblood superiority though. Although I cannot prove it of course with certainty. I think Snape really wanted to be the same status and to me his name always indicated his desire to be something he could never achieve, not his pride in his heritage. IMO of course.

Julie:
But those motives might explain how Snape was able to change over the years he
worked for Dumbledore from a man who only cared that the woman he loved was
saved, to a man who in the end saved those he could (like Lupin) even if it
might blow his cover, and reacted with fury at Phineas Nigellus' use of the term
"Mudblood."

Alla:

Or maybe the death of the woman he loved taught him that he has no right to pass judgments on whose life is worth more and who should be dead and that could have nothing to do with the motives he joined (whatever those motives were).

Julie:
I do think the WW holds childhood as less sacred than Muggles society. At the
very least Wizards are more willing to see children injured (maybe because they
can usually be healed so much faster from their injuries) and even put into
mortal danger (the Triwizard Tournament) than any Muggle parent would allow. <SNIP>

Alla:

I am going to bring up Pippin's quote here, because I think you both are arguing similar point.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
I am trying to show that you can love and still be part of a culture that
doesn't put the same value on every child's life. I don't have the reference,
but I believe there's a letter extant from an ancient Roman traveler to his
pregnant wife, where he writes touchingly about his love for her, and his hopes
for their child. And then he says, in his final line, that if it's a girl, she
should drown it. <SNIP>


Alla:

So um, sure of course WW holds childhood less sacred than Muggle society.  One just has to look at some staff that is happening in Hogwarts to see it. Do I like it ? Sometimes I do, often I do not, and I mostly like it in physical sense, not in emotional one, since to me the fact that they are wizard kids, they are sort of expected to be tougher physically.

But to me there is a long way to go from Triwizard tournament where participants can die from the competition gone wrong to go around **killing** kids by choice.

So, I see no proof that WW is okay with deliberate killing of the kids, unless we are talking About Death Eaters. I see no proof that they are willing to do what Pippin brought up about that Roman, or what ancient Spartans did with their newborns.

I think they are **certainly** allow their kids to take much more risks and to some extent I think it is justifiable by the fact they have magic and to some extent to me it is not at all justifiable.

I mean, it is a world that is totally okay with three seventeen year olds saving their asses and IMO not doing nearly enough to help them.

But I do not think WW by and large is okay with what Snape did by giving three innocents (whoever they may be)  to Voldemort to eat. I see no proof that they are.

Julie:
<SNIP>
I also think Snape did learn the philosophy of his master in regards to Muggles
and Muggleborn lives being worth nothing, rather than being raised to believe
it. Or he wouldn't have loved Lily. <SNIP>

Alla:

Oh, I don't know, to me his hesitation when Lily asks him about the difference showed that he knew pretty well. I think he loved Lily despite the fact that she was Muggle born, not because she was. As she is telling him that why she should be any different if he calls everybody of her heritage that word. (paraphrasing).

Julie:
<SNIP>
Much later, after prolonged association with Dumbledore, and after taking a good, objective look at Voldemort's self-serving goals from the other side, Snape came to recognize and honor his true belief that all lives had worth, especially the innocent ones, as well as the lives of those he heartily disliked, like Lupin and Harry.

Alla:

I do not think we know that this was ever his true belief, but I totally think that he came to have such belief in Dumbledore's clutches, erm sorry service.


JMO,

Alla