Snape's "grudge" (Was: Secrets (Long) OLD POST REPOST)

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 186427

Montavilla47 wrote:
> 
> May I offer an alternative interpretation?  We have only Dumbledore's and Lupin's word that Snape carried a grudge against James "all those years" because of  their school days/the Prank. In Dumbedore's case, we know he was lying, and in Lupin's case, he could easily be mistaken.

Carol responds:
I wouldn't call it a lie so much as a cover story, a half truth that conceals something more important, in this case, Snape's primary motivation for protecting Harry, which DD is not at liberty to reveal. Dumbledore apparently feels safe in mentioning Snape's schoolboy enmity with James, which was never secret, whereas his love for Lily is a secret known only to Dumbledore, which Dumbledore (against his own instincts, IMO) has promised never to divulge. Much the same thing happens with Dumbledore's injured hand. Rather than hide it and breed speculation, Dumbledore makes sure that it's seen while he encourages people to think that his reflexes have slowed--exactly the same cover story that Snape tells Bellatrix (and, presumably, Voldemort).

As for Lupin, I agree that he's mistaken about Snape's furious antagonism in the Shrieking Shack being the result of a schoolboy grudge, but I don't see how we can expect him to think otherwise. It's the only motivation he's aware of. Both he and Black know about the so-called Prank (which they also know seriously endangered Snape), along with SWM and the whole history of Snape and the Marauders. Lupin also knows that Snape, like everyone including even Dumbledore, thinks that Sirius betrayed the Potters, but he doesn't consider the possibility that Snape might hate Black for that reason rather than what Snape perceives as an attempted murder of one boy by another. Why, in Lupin's view, would Snape, who hated James and called Lily a "filthy little Mudblood," care about that? He does realize that Snape is trying to protect Harry from a man he perceives as a murderer, but when Snape ignores his statement that Black isn't there to kill Harry, he retorts with his remark about a schoolboy grudge and calls Snape a fool, ruining any chance he might have had to convince Snape that he's mistaken (PoA Am. ed. 559).

Montavilla (out of sequence): 
> Lupin tells us at the end of the book that Snape "let slip" about his werewolf-positive status.  We don't know how that happened, so I don't think we can conclude with certainty that Snape did that out of a grudge towards Lupin. If it was, it probably more related to the whole fiasco of the previous night and not from their childhood relationship.

Carol:
I agree. The narrative is set up to make Snape's hatred of MWPP (seemingly based solely on the "Prank") appear to be his sole or primary motivation both in going after Lupin to the Shrieking Shack and in "letting slip" at breakfast that he's a werewolf. Actually, Lupin blames it on the loss of Snape's Order of Merlin, another red herring motivation (perhaps supplied by DD as a cover story since Lupin himself didn't witness Snape's "disappointment"). Later, in HBP, Lupin blames Snape's "outing" him on Snape's wanting his post as DADA teacher. Either way, Snape's motivation appears to be petty revenge while Lupin appears to be the innocent victim of prejudice against werewolves.

Neither explanation takes into account that Lupin himself endangered HRH by running out onto the grounds after failing to take the potion and would have lost his job in any case. (Hagrid, who does not know that HRH already know all about it, informs them that Lupin is a werewolf, that he was "loose on the grounds last night," and that he's packin' now, of course," 422. He takes it for granted that Lupin should lose his job and that everyone will--and should--know why.)

Nor does Lupin seem to realize that Snape, who did not believe what he heard of Lupin's story, still sees him not only as a danger to the students in general but as the accomplice of the man who tried to kill Harry Potter. Instead, he finds reasons (the Order of Merlin and later wanting the DADA job) why Snape would seek petty revenge by revealing to his students that he, Lupin, is a werewolf. Lupin admits that the information would have leaked out, anyway, and that he could not have kept his job, but he makes it look like prejudice against werewolves and not his own doing. Fudge, of course, would make sure that Lupin didn't remain at Hogwarts if Dumbledore didn't, in which case, the news would have made headlines in the Daily Prophet. But parents not wanting a werewolf teaching their children (which is perfectly true) is beside the point. Even Lupin realizes that he could have bitten any of the Trio and that it "must never happen again" (423). At any rate, cause and effect are thoroughly jumbled and Snape's motivation thoroughly obscured.

Montavilla: 
> In PoA, Lupin explains that Snape resented the Marauders ("spied on us" growls Sirius), and even more so after the Prank.  Snape doesn't contradict this, but he has a lot more reasons to hate Sirius at this point. As far as he knows, Sirius betrayed Lily and is as complicit in her murder as Snape himself--and now he's trying to kill Lily's child. <snipped and moved out of sequence>

Carol:
I agree. We know that Snape (wrongly) thinks that Lupin was helping Black get into the school to kill Harry (really Wormtail). We know that he furiously refuses to believe what he hears of Lupin's explanation. (HRH don't fully believe it at that point, either, and they've heard more than Snape has.) What we don't know is that Snape loved Lily and firmly believes that her death is Black's fault. (IMO, he's doing much the same thing that Harry does later in scapegoating Snape for Black's death, shifting his own share of the blame to someone else because he can't face the truth--and the same thing that Lupin himself does in blaming Snape for his being compelled to resign--or "sacked," as Harry later puts it. It's much easier to blame someone you hate than to own up to your own share of the responsibility.)

Once Snape learns the truth about the Potters' betrayal, which I think confronts him when he sees the black dog transform into Black in GoF and realizes that Lupin's Animagus story must be true, the relationship easily turns back to the old schoolboy antagonism, fueled by Black's use of "Snivellus" and Snape's belief that Black tried to murder him when they were both sixteen.

As for Snape's relationship with Lupin, he made the Wolfbane Potion and made it perfectly even though he hates Lupin and thinks that Lupin is helping Black get into the castle. He knows how dangerous the transformed Lupin can be without that potion. It's self-evident that he doesn't want him loose in the castle or grounds on full-moon nights any more than DD does, and the perfectly brewed potion is certainly a better solution than sending Lupin to the Shrieking Shack to transform (as Snape knows from experience). As long as Lupin is not actively endangering the students, Snape does nothing more than assign an essay on werewolves in the hope that Hermione (or some other bright student?) will figure out that DD is harboring a werewolf. Once Lupin has forgotten his potion and actually endangered HRH, however, he feels safe in "letting slip" what will, as Lupin himself points out to Harry, surely become known, anyway. (Fudge, the Minister for Magic, knows that Lupin is a werewolf and Umbridge has, IIRC, already passed her legislation. And surely, had Lupin not offered his resignation, Dumbledore would have asked for it. Lupin has violated his trust in more ways than one and (once again) shown DD's precautions regarding him to be insufficient.

Again, Snape, AFAWK, still thinks that Lupin was letting Black into the castle to kill Harry. His shock at seeing the transformed Black in GoF (matched by Mrs. Weasley's) shows that he never believed Lupin's Animagus story. Possibly only seeing the living Wormtail at Voldemort's side fully convinced him of its truth. But at the end of PoA, as far as he knows, he's not just outing a werewolf who has endangered Harry Potter, the boy that Snape has promised to protect. He's outing (he thinks) the criminal accomplice of Lily's betrayer, the man who (he thinks) twice helped that betrayer to enter Hogwarts to kill Harry. And that werewolf will, he knows, be losing his post for endangering his students, whether or not Snape reveals that information to his students. 

IOW, I agree that the schoolboy grudge has little or nothing to do with Snape's "outing" Lupin. He thinks (or rather, knows) that Lupin (like Quirrell before him) is dangerous, and he wants him out of Hogwarts. It's true that it's not Snape's job pressure fellow staff members into resigning, either he feels justified in making sure that Lupin has no alternative or he knows that DD is already planning to fire Lupin if Lupin doesn't resign. And we can be pretty sure that DD, too, wanted Lupin gone at this point and was happy to accept his resignation.

Montavilla: 
> In PS/SS, Voldemort told Harry that Snape hated James, but didn't want Harry killed.  That's true enough, but we know that Voldemort was pretty wrong about Snape's motivations.  So, we really can't trust his take on the situation.

Carol:
Actually, this information is provided by Quirrell, who may have attended Hogwarts at about the same time as Snape and the Marauders since he knows about the rivalry. Admittedly, he's described as young, and he conceivably could be as young as twenty-three or -four or so with only a year as Muggle Studies teacher, but Lupin, too, is described as young or "quite young," and he's the same age as Snape, who is 31-32 in SS/PS and 33-34 in PoA. Even if Quirrell was a first year when Snape et al. were sixth or seventh years, he would know about that rivalry. At any rate, it seems to be an open secret, unlike Snape's love for Lily, about which Quirrell could have no inkling. His information is true as far as it goes, but it's incomplete.

Montavilla: 
> Dumbledore supports that theory with his information that Snape hated James for saving his life, telling Harry that Snape was protecting him in order to even up the score and so that he can keep "hating James in peace."  But, we know this is a lie.  Snape is protecting Harry because of Lily and James' only part in the equation is that Harry's resemblance to his father increases Snape's dislike of him.

Carol:
In defense of Dumbledore, he has to give Harry some explanation for Snape's saving his life without giving away Snape's secret, and it's true that James saved Snape's life and that Snape hated him. It's perfectly in character for Snape to want to even the score (he must have hated having his life saved by his worst enemy), and Quirrell has already told Harry that Snape hated his father. The half truth satisfies Harry (who hates Snape himself) and allows DD to provide Snape with a plausible (and probably true) motivation without revealing his primary motivation. DD uses the same tactic in providing Snape with reasons to kill him. Sure, having Snape kill DD will prevent harm to Draco's soul (more important to Snape than to Draco once he understands that his own soul won't be harmed); sure, it will prevent an already dying old man from being tortured by real DEs or savaged by Greyback. It will also, as Snape knows, enable him to come back and protect the students as headmaster. Good and valid reasons, all of them, but not the primary reason, which DD conceals from Snape (ending the power of the Elder Wand). Snape operates in exactly the same way with Bellatrix and Voldemort--half truths and cover stories with the key element hidden.

Montavilla: 
> In GoF and OotP, we see that Snape and Sirius both hate/dislike each other, but we don't see much indication that Snape continues to hold a grudge after Sirius is dead.  He never mentions Sirius to Harry, and that detention thing might be less about his dislike of James and Sirius and more about teaching Harry that cursing other people is wrong.
> 
> In DH, Snape risks his cover to help Lupin out, so I think the grudge is over at that point.

Carol:
I agree. It's Harry's perception, as he walks from the gate to the Great Wall accompanied by Snape (who is deducting points for his lateness and "Muggle attire" and possibly trying to get Harry angry enough to defend himself and in so doing explain what he's been up to) that Snape is glad that Sirius Black is dead. Certainly, Snape is shedding no tears over Black, any more than Black would have shed them over him, but unlike Bellatrix and Narcissa, he makes no remarks to Harry about his "dear godfather" being dead. He seems to be completely indifferent. (Oddly, Wormtail, whom he now knows to be the real betrayer, earns not his hatred but his contempt.)

And, yes. Snape's rescue of Lupin (which does prevent his being AK'd despite the Sectumsempra hitting the wrong target) can only be explained by Snape's willingness to save any life he can from Voldemort and the DEs--even that of an old enemy. (It's Lupin, now willing to believe that Snape murdered Dumbledore, just as he earlier believed that Black had betrayed the Potters to their deaths, who can't let go of the old hatreds. Only DD's trust of Snape held that old enmity in check, and we see a new, vengeance-seeking Lupin in HBP.

Montavilla: 
> So, I don't hold that Snape wastes his life by holding grudges against dead people (who are dead and thus couldn't care less what he's doing).  If his life is wasted, it's wasted because he's keeping to a promise he made when he was suicidally depressed. Or, alternately, that he inadvertently set a murderer on the woman he loved, after losing her friendship due to his racist views.

Carol:
I agree that Snape doesn't waste his life holding grudges (which is not to say that he doesn't hold them, just that the grudges are not as important as they seem in explaining his motivation). It's his remorse for his part in Lily's death and his determination to protect Harry (despite his resemblance to the hated James) so that her death won't be in vain that shapes the rest of his life. True, he never marries, unable to let go of his unrequited love for a dead woman. True, he never finds a career that would give full scope for his many talents. But he does help motivated students to learn Potions. He does serve as Head of Slytherin House (and, in many respects, DD's right hand man at Hogwarts) throughout the books. He does risk his life spying on Voldemort and the Death Eaters, providing DD with information that no one else could provide. And he does help and protect Harry (and even, occasionally, teach him something useful, like Bezoars and Expelliarmus). His is not a happy life, but it's a useful one, and LV could not have been defeated without his contributions.

An aside here: I'm not sure that Snape ever held "racist" views--in quotation marks because Muggle-borns are not a separate race from Purebloods--but certainly he lost Lily's friendship because of his unwillingness to dissociate himself from his "little Death Eater friends" and because he used the "bloodist" slur "Mudblood" in his rage and humiliation. But his undying regret and his unrequited love lead to remorse which leads to repentance and a life devoted to serving Dumbledore and undermining Voldemort and protecting Harry (as close as he can come to restitution), all of which leads, ultimately, to redemption. I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't call that a wasted life. 

And if Lupin can be happy in the afterlife, free of the ravages of his lycanthropy, I see no reason why Snape can't be happy, too, freed of regret and resentment and bitterness. I'd like to think that he and the three "good" Marauders at last understand and respect each other.

Montevilla: 
> But it wasn't about James at all.  Compared to his relationship with Lily and his mission towards Voldemort, the Marauders were very small potatoes.

Carol:
I can't say that it wasn't about James "at all." His hatred and resentment of James (shown in the shouted "your filthy father" at the end of HBP) certainly played a part, preventing Snape from ever liking Harry and causing Snape to see Harry's rule-breaking and (occasional) arrogance but not his better qualities and motives. It's probably safe to say that, had he resembled Lily, the whole Snape/Harry dynamic would have been different.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that the Marauders were "small potatoes" compared with Lily and the destruction of Voldemort. They serve primarily to distract Harry and the reader from Snape's true or primary motives, which JKR is withholding (except for sufficient hints to make the real story plausible) until "The Prince's Tale." Snape's pettiness and vindictiveness must overshadow his courage and determination and cast doubts on his loyalty, providing a plausible motivation for his good acts (like going into the Shrieking Shack to save Harry from the werewolf and the "murderer") and make others (like "outing" Lupin) seem nothing more than petty acts of vengeance.

I am not by any means denying Snape's sarcasm and unfairness or his tendency to leap to conclusions. I'm just saying that his hatred of the Marauders, though real, is not his primary motivation in PoA or any other book. In short, I agree in general that the grudge is "small potatoes," but I think it serves as an important diversionary tactic, misleading the reader--and Harry--with regard to Snape's true intentions and motives, much as Fake!Moody's seeming kindness to Harry misled us as to his evil intentions in GoF. The difference is that the Snape diversion (for lack of a better term) is sustained over almost the entire series rather than just one book.

Carol, whose attempts to shorten this post paradoxically resulted in making it longer!